Quantcast Time to Revise File Prediction! - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
06-20-2003, 10:41 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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I'm getting inconsistent results lately. There are too many new factors involved. AviSynth 2.52, new motion adaptive script, etc. I think it's time for a revision

-kwag
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Someday, 12:01 PM
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  #2  
06-20-2003, 11:22 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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I didn't try it since avs252 but the method used by DVD2SVCD always gave me good result even in PAL (where Tok is very bad ).

The idea of DVD2SVCD is to always make a sample of 100 seconds, taking 1 second every 1/100th of the movie length (in minute)

(different from sampler.dll that for instance take only 80 samples when the film is 1h20min).
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  #3  
06-20-2003, 11:28 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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I tried even manual prediction, and the final size is off
I've done it twice with "K-Pax", using the optimal 2.52 script.
The basic rule on KVCD prediction is to take 1 second for every minute of the movie. It has been like this, even before DVD2SVCD did it that way
This is now failing, and is not as accurate as it was when static filters were used, and AviSynth 2.0x. Precious accuracy was ~2% ALWAYS. Not anymore I'm now off by +5% in this case
So I'm revising this stuff now

-kwag
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  #4  
06-20-2003, 11:40 AM
audi2honda audi2honda is offline
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cool
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  #5  
06-20-2003, 11:44 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Kwag wrote:
"even before DVD2SVCD did it that way"

yes, i remember and you post this in doom9!

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...highlight=kwag

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  #6  
06-20-2003, 12:01 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Geee! thanks jorel
I forgot about that post

-kwag
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  #7  
06-20-2003, 12:25 PM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
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kwag, I totally agree. I'm getting completely incosistent results too. I'm currently stuck on this one movie that is consistently ending up at 830mb (m1v) with ToK and manual prediction too
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  #8  
06-20-2003, 01:31 PM
ARnet_tenRA ARnet_tenRA is offline
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Hi, I mentioned in a different thread that the following steps work well for me.

Start TOK and set factor to 1.00
Let TOK encode the Full and Small predict size.
Cancel prediction.
Find out the ratio of Full to Small size and divide this by 10.5
Then set the factor to the result.
Restart TOK and let it run.

Regards, Tenra
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  #9  
06-20-2003, 03:20 PM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
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hi Tenra,

can I do this manually like this (psuedocode):

clip(a) = SampleClip() 'full sample
clip(b) = SampleClip(10) '10% of full sample

factor = (size clip(a) / size clip(b) ) / 10.5

Then use this factor in the Predict function?

Thanks,
ren
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  #10  
06-20-2003, 09:09 PM
ARnet_tenRA ARnet_tenRA is offline
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Hi Ren,
Quote:
Originally Posted by rendalunit
can I do this manually like this (psuedocode):

clip(a) = SampleClip() 'full sample
clip(b) = SampleClip(10) '10% of full sample

factor = (size clip(a) / size clip(b) ) / 10.5
That looks good to me. Actually it is a lot easier way to understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rendalunit
Then use this factor in the Predict function?
I do not know if this will work well in the predict function. I'll have to take a look, unless someone else gets to it before me.

Regards, Tenra
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  #11  
06-21-2003, 02:05 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Script updated. Hopefully, the root of the problem was nailed
Read the change log here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3483

-kwag
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  #12  
06-21-2003, 02:32 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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And take the hopefully with a grain of salt
Although I definitely saw the hard shift with -2 on some scenes, which I don't see at all with -1, I just did a small 2 minute clip with -1 and another with -2, and the file size was the same
I guess I'll have to encode a longer clip to see if the effect does reduce the file size. If not, back to the drawing board
Anyway, the -1 does fix the shift on the frame after scene change.

-kwag
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  #13  
06-21-2003, 04:06 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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@ Kwag..

W/ regards to K-PAX...

You said that in your past "predictions" it was on target ??

But, today, that same Movie is NO longer on target ??
* using the same method you used when it did work ??

-vhelp
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  #14  
06-21-2003, 04:21 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi vhelp,

The prediction is again chaotic.
The new AviSynth 2.52, the MA script, too many factors. I'm trying to zero in on the problems
I did "K-Pax", and the file size was ~5% over the wanted size
Not that it would make visual difference after lowering the CQ a tad, but the problem is we're going "above" final wanted file size. Even with manual prediction, it's not working correctly either
I assume this will be the case with any program currently doing prediction and using the MA script. I bet even DVD2SVCD will be thrown off calculations with the MA script
So if anyone want's correct prediction, go back to AviSynth 2.08, and use the old script. I won't go back to 2.08 , NO WAY I'll just keep working on this until I (or someone!) find a consistent method to correct the chaos

-kwag
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  #15  
06-21-2003, 04:48 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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Hi Kwag..

I can save you all the trouble. I've ben toying as well as pulling my hair
out on (my own set of..) issues too. And, I believe I have the answer

Hint, hint...
And, don't get mad, but does "color washout" mean anything to you ?? ??

Yes, the color IS off. And, THAT'S why the "predicton" is OFF !!

Ok, FIRST, because there are so many Filters that we use in AVIsynth
for the MA script, (and things change fast w/ filter used or not) the issue is
they are ALL NOT of equal color space. There are too many.

Ok, let met explain..
Some filters require YUV, others YUV2 and others YV12 and so on.. .. ..
That alone is enough to throw off our (YOUR) previous DVD movie that
USED to be on target in past testings.

So, the only way we can have a successful "prediction", is to have those
that created ALL the necessary AVIsynth Filters "separately" to:
* YV12
* YUV
* YUY2
* RGB
* etc.

Then, we have no trouble w/ any, becuase say, out source is from a
capture card, then obviously, we could use ALL the filters that ONLY
pertain to YUY2 color space.

If our source is DVD rip, then obviously, we could use ALL the filters that
ONLY pertain to YV12 color space.

THEN, and only THEN, will we have accurate "predictions" for the same
source, every time.. .. mix your source's color space (ie, YUY2 w/ YV12)
and your "prediction" is off) It's a matter of fine-tuning otherwise, but I
doubt that fine-tuning will help w/ mixed color space ..too un-"predictable"

What are you comments on this

Now.. I've ben toying w/ the idea of using an OLDER mpeg2dec.dll w/ the
help of this script:
Code:
 ## v2.52 DLL Filters go here ## 

 txt_dir252="c:\dlls252\"

 ## LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"MPEG2Dec3.dll") 
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"decomb.dll")
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"STMedianFilter.dll")
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"asharp.dll") 
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"UnDot.dll")
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir252+"GripFit_YV12.dll")

 ## Older DLL Filters go here ##
 txt_dir25x="c:\dlls\"
 LoadPlugin("d:\LoadPluginEx.dll") 
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir25x+"mpeg2dec.dll")
 LoadPlugin(txt_dir25x+"DustV5.dll")

 Mpeg2Source("h:\vfapi\duce.yuv.1.d2v

 ## Mpeg2Source("h:\vfapi\duce.rgb.1.d2v
 ## Mpeg2Source("h:\vfapi\duce.yuv.1.d2v

 MaxTreshold = 1.50 
 scd_trigger = 30 # Scene change trigger value. 
 nf = 0 # Current frame. 
 .
 .
Also, what color space (YUY2 or YV12) is Limiter() ??
I get two "color space" quality differece when I REM ## it out vs. not
REM ## it out. ..try it out for yourself.
.
.
OR,
.
.
if you your
Code:
#asharp(2, 4)
video image will be normal, else for me, it splits the image 1/2, one side with
pink, and other side w/ normal video.
So, it looks like asharp is causing this issue. Must be another
color space

More to say, that I've noticed in the past week on issues w/ latest AVIsynth v2.52
but i don't want to get into any debates.. but it looks like too many cooks
has spoiled this broath for now.

But, for the time being, we can try and figure out the bugs and work around
them
With the help of ALL.

Be good
-vhelp
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  #16  
06-21-2003, 04:55 PM
ovg64 ovg64 is offline
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I dont think they even had to go back to Asynth 2.08 to me they can keep using 2.52 n just check off the Adaptive script line. This is what trowing
off prediction because tok has now way to now how long is it going to blur
on high motion scenes i keep being of below the target 20~40 Mb even with the old prediction method; BTW not only prediction is off but the time too encode is less than it says, im getting 5 hrs ecodes in 4-1/2, so there
you go i guess Tmpeg encode faster in high motion scenes cause of less detail that doen't have to encode, does that make any sence it kind of does to me. Anyway, im not giving up on the adaptive script, n i dont think anybody should, i think is to early for that because every problem has an anwer.
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  #17  
06-21-2003, 05:07 PM
audi2honda audi2honda is offline
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Is 15MB short on a 2CD encode considered accurate? Or is this off? I'm thinking about trying again, but I don't know if 15MB will give me that much more quality to make the re-encode worth it.
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  #18  
06-21-2003, 05:20 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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Oh Kwag..

"prediction" vs. "color space"...

Something lese came to mind on "prediction" vs. "color space"
In your prevous v2.08 "predictons" w/ Movie "K-PAX", you got a certain
rate.. well, have a look below, in hopes to better explain what is
truley going on.

Have a look at this "analigy" below:

A) --> YUY2 <--
* K-Pax
* prediction: 7.8


B) --> YV12 <--
* K-Pax
* prediction: 9.2


C) --> MIXED YUY2 and YV12 etc Filters <--
* K-Pax
* prediction: 11.6

Note 1..
If you ran "prediction" separately on A) and B) you would get two
different predicitons.

Note 2..
If you were to do same w/ C) don't expect to get the same predict
matching A) or even B)

Note 3..
Now, if you mix different Filters that have different "color space"
requirements ie, C) and say, you got asharp() YUY2 last month,
and then a new one (revised) comes along but this time in YV12, you
will get an even different predict rate because you stired the pot
some.. ie, C) hehe..


@ ovg64..

Note 4 w/ respect to ovg64..
Even though that may be true, you'll still have prediction problems
BECAUSE OF THE mixing of color space filters. You have to have
consistant color space filters in a project ! Either you have
YV12 throughout your project, or YUY2.

It would probably be easier to have those associated w/ the creation
of their filters to make separate ones.. At very least, have:
* YUY2, and
* YV12
..filters
.
.
then to figure out how to work around it, but on the other hand, it's
harder to talk to the majority of those peoples, to get them to revise
their Filters. Member prev. how it was hard to get people to change
for AVIsynth 2.5x ?? Anyways..
.
.
Then, later, during the process, if user needs to have a final color
space conversion, then can use the convertToYV12 etc, at the end of
their scripts, and proceed to encode w/ happyness

I firmly believe that for serious quality freaks (like myself) that
want the best in their process, should only be using one color space.
Mixing is just an excuse ta get the job done. That should only be
if "quality" is not your goal. I hate this band-aid method of mixing
if it taints the final quality. It's VERY crude, and causes us geeks
countless waist of debuggin even the simplist of encodes when all it
really is is just the color space - - that simple. It's always the
outsider (me) who has to wake others up to the reality of chaos, and
when enough is awake, and stirs up the pot, THATs when things get done!
AAARRRR !!

Last note..
I'm starved !! Oh, right.. as I was saying..
the above predict numbers I made up. Don't take them literally.

-vhelp
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  #19  
06-21-2003, 05:39 PM
ovg64 ovg64 is offline
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@Vhelp,
If your theory is true than all you would need to do is
make a script w say YV12 filters only run prediction and Encode
The final file size should now be on target like in 2.08, that would
pretty much prove your theory, i think.
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  #20  
06-21-2003, 05:45 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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@ ovg64..

Answer.. NO. and, I'll explain in a moment.
-vhelp
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