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  #81  
06-19-2004, 05:34 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorel
but this is OT! the topic is the script used to get the same AR just like the source in 4:3 tvs!!!!
Yes, I understood that after.

Quote:
loading the source i get:
BilinearResize(688, 350, 6, 0, 708, 480)# moviestacker overscan2
AddBorders(16, 65, 16, 65)
loading the SAME source later(or in another day,another hour,later):
BilinearResize(688, 352, 8, 0, 704, 480))# moviestacker overscan2
AddBorders(16, 64, 16, 64)
without change anything in MovieStacker LIKE THE PICTURE POSTED!!!
Okay, this remember something I had also the first time I used moviestaker: if you load a source, then change the slidder value to 16, the parameters ARE NOT modifed.
But if you have the slidder on "16" and load the source... THEN the values are computed correctly.

This is a bug of the GUI (even if it happens only the first time you change the slidders). You are right.

Quote:
CLEAR or i'm still UNCLEAR?
No, you are clear. You mention a GUI bug and I was talking about the values generated by Moviestacker. These values are correct WHEN the value of the slidder is really taken in account and it is not the case anytime due to this GUI bug

Do as I do : never change the slidders value
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  #82  
06-19-2004, 09:39 AM
r6d2 r6d2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
I understand perfectly that your resize/crop routine creates: "As seen on TV", but the problem of "As seen on TV", is that much of the pixel area is being lost on the sides, and that's a fact.
Yes, that's a fact. That is the ultimate purpose of the tool.
Quote:
So why would you settle for creating a script that does that,
The reason is obvious and has been pointed out before on this very thread, so I won't repeat it. Also, because the question is meaningless. I could ask "how possibly can you settle for a technique like KVCD, that reduces quality considerably, just for fitting a movie on much less space than actually needed?"

You see? Pointless. It's a matter of taste.
Quote:
and then resize correctly with overscan so the movie reproduction fills the screen with the "true" director's perspective and vision
What you're saying is that people who have 4:3 TVs don't get the "true" director vision when playing their original DVDs. That is a religious topic, my friend, and I won't get into it. I hope you don't have a problem with other people encoding just what their TV allows them so see, just like the original DVD.
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This is achieved by correctly calculating the most precise crop, so when the scaling is done, you have the minimum % difference from source to destination.
Nope. When you resize in two dimensions, you create many more resizing artifacts. This has nothing to do with precision, but distortion. Of course is a distortion you can live with. Not extremely terrible (like the 1% AR error).

As an example, think of anamorphic sources. They are created to resize in one dimension only on any TV. Vertically for 4:3, horizontally for 16:9. It's interesting you have never noticed that.

Cheers.
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  #83  
06-19-2004, 11:11 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6d2
I could ask "how possibly can you settle for a technique like KVCD, that reduces quality considerably, just for fitting a movie on much less space than actually needed?"
Because it's a proven fact that the visual quality is maintained, compared to standard mpeg encodings, and that's another fact
Specially with KDVD, where you can have ~5 hours looking identical (to the eye), compared to a regular 2 hour DVD. And that't another fact.
But you see, you are trading quality for quantity, because you are chopping off about 15% of the movie, and that my friend, is clearly visible to anybody's eye.
Quote:

You see? Pointless. It's a matter of taste.
No. It's a matter of math, with VERY poor taste.
Again, you are sacrificing movie pixels, so the encoder has less pixels and can create higher quality. Sure, less movie pixels = higher quality, at the expense of loss of BIG movie area.
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and then resize correctly with overscan so the movie reproduction fills the screen with the "true" director's perspective and vision
What you're saying is that people who have 4:3 TVs don't get the "true" director vision when playing their original DVDs. That is a religious topic, my friend, and I won't get into it.
Not religious at all. Any wide screen DVD will correctly play as letterboxed on a 4:3 TV, just with black borders, so don't swing things around
Quote:
I hope you don't have a problem with other people encoding just what their TV allows them so see, just like the original DVD.
Yes I do
If you can recover what you won't see on a TV, and you can re-encode so you can see it again, then why not explain to people how to correct that deficiency
What you are telling people, or making them believe, is that they will see "as seen on TV"., but you are not telling them the other true side of the story, and that is that they could FIX that with a proper crop/resize, which is what MovieStacker and already FitCD do
Quote:
This is achieved by correctly calculating the most precise crop, so when the scaling is done, you have the minimum % difference from source to destination.
Quote:
Nope. When you resize in two dimensions, you create many more resizing artifacts. This has nothing to do with precision, but distortion. Of course is a distortion you can live with. Not extremely terrible (like the 1% AR error).
NO NO NO
If you precisely crop and rescale, you WILL have no artifacts, because you are now scaling by a correct factor, so once the movie is resized on the TV, it will have the same aspect ratio of the original.
Quote:

As an example, think of anamorphic sources. They are created to resize in one dimension only on any TV. Vertically for 4:3, horizontally for 16:9. It's interesting you have never noticed that.

Cheers.
No, it's interesting that you still don't grasp the basics
Please go back and read the uwasa site, and read some more
And download this too: http://www.kvcd.net/Karl_cap_v1_en.pdf

-kwag
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  #84  
06-19-2004, 12:05 PM
r6d2 r6d2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Because it's a proven fact that the visual quality is maintained, compared to standard mpeg encodings, and that's another fact
Oh, then I recommend you to let the movie industry know this discovery order to have them fit a whole season of Friends in a single DVD, right from the factory.
Quote:
because you are chopping off about 15% of the movie, and that my friend, is clearly visible to anybody's eye.
I have yet to meet someone whose eyes allow him to see what is on the overscan area of a regular 4:3 TV. When you know of somebody, please let me know.
Quote:
Again, you are sacrificing movie pixels, so the encoder has less pixels and can create higher quality.
My friend, by scaling down you are also sacrifying movie pixels. I will not insult you intelligence by telling you why.
Quote:
Any wide screen DVD will correctly play as letterboxed on a 4:3 TV, just with black borders, so don't swing things around
Really? And the overscan area? Doesn't that belong to the original vision of the director?

Anyway, you seem to think that anamorphic and widescreen are the same thing. Interesting.
Quote:
If you precisely crop and rescale, you WILL have no artifacts
You should do some reading too.
http://www.widescreen.org/dvd_anamorphic.shtml
Quote:
No, it's interesting that you still don't grasp the basics
Yes, it is interesting. You see? I told you this was a interesting thread. I guess I have some learning to do before I can challenge your superior mind.

Cheers,
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  #85  
06-19-2004, 06:12 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6d2
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Because it's a proven fact that the visual quality is maintained, compared to standard mpeg encodings, and that's another fact
Oh, then I recommend you to let the movie industry know this discovery order to have them fit a whole season of Friends in a single DVD, right from the factory.
Trust me, it won't happen, not because of quality but because the will want to "stick" you with many DVDs instead of a couple of DVDs.
KDVDs are an advantage to users. NOT to the industry
Quote:
Quote:
because you are chopping off about 15% of the movie, and that my friend, is clearly visible to anybody's eye.
I have yet to meet someone whose eyes allow him to see what is on the overscan area of a regular 4:3 TV. When you know of somebody, please let me know.
Please don't twist the meaning. You know damn well what I mean
Quote:
Quote:
Again, you are sacrificing movie pixels, so the encoder has less pixels and can create higher quality.
My friend, by scaling down you are also sacrifying movie pixels. I will not insult you intelligence by telling you why.
My intelligence tells me that anyone who cuts 15% of the edges of a movie, instead of doing it THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DONE, and says it's to "See it as on TV", reminds me of marketing spam ads of "As seen on TV", TV commercials
Quote:
Quote:
Any wide screen DVD will correctly play as letterboxed on a 4:3 TV, just with black borders, so don't swing things around
Really? And the overscan area? Doesn't that belong to the original vision of the director?
NO
When you go to the theatre, YOU SEE ALL the movie
There are NO overscans, so your DVD contains ALL the movie, and the TV is what cuts it off.

Pleeeeeease, stop this nonsense, and do a correct crop/resize, so people see ALL the movie as ENCODED on the DVD, but not seen on the TV
Quote:

Anyway, you seem to think that anamorphic and widescreen are the same thing. Interesting.
Quote:
If you precisely crop and rescale, you WILL have no artifacts
You should do some reading too.
http://www.widescreen.org/dvd_anamorphic.shtml
Quote:
No, it's interesting that you still don't grasp the basics
Yes, it is interesting. You see? I told you this was a interesting thread. I guess I have some learning to do before I can challenge your superior mind.

Cheers,
No. You have A LOT of reading to do, so you can challenge THE INDUSTRY standard aspect ratio and calculations
I just follow them

Greetzzz!,
-kwag
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  #86  
06-19-2004, 06:24 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6d2
Anyway, you seem to think that anamorphic and widescreen are the same thing. Interesting.
As much interesting as reading that you seem to think that CINEMA directors shoot their movies with TV broadcast in mind.
Quote:
Really? And the overscan area? Doesn't that belong to the original vision of the director?
You see, we can do silly shortcuts in the words written too...
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  #87  
06-20-2004, 11:38 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6d2
Hi guys,
I had not visited this site for a while. I was invited to this thread by jorel at Doom9 forum. I thank him because this is an interesting thread indeed.
... I try to use reason to accomplish an understanding, but my gut feeling is that some people here do not like that. They just want to find ways to justify things that resist no analysis whatsoever.
thank you r6d2 for accept my invitation and you will be always welcome here......different opinions don't have power to break our friendship. "our" means we all, not only you and me. elegant positions are encreasing our knowledge and firendship more and more every day and that differents opinions are to find better results.
thank you very much again!
and remember: you don't need more invitations to came here, trust me, you're always welcome
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  #88  
06-20-2004, 01:10 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
This is a bug of the GUI (even if it happens only the first time you change the slidders). You are right.

Quote:
CLEAR or i'm still UNCLEAR?
No, you are clear. You mention a GUI bug and I was talking about the values generated by Moviestacker. These values are correct WHEN the value of the slidder is really taken in account and it is not the case anytime due to this GUI bug

Do as I do : never change the slidders value
Phil,
i found this little thread posted a long time(that i was forgot):
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3741
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  #89  
07-12-2004, 12:57 AM
SansGrip SansGrip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
We usually say (or I recall SansGrip saying) "Why encode what you can't see?", which is why we use overscan, so we can see the complete picture.
Overscan is not really worth fighting about. By definition it's impossible to know how much of the frame will be projected beyond the TV's edges (and thus out of sight) because every TV is different. Even things like local magnetic fields can affect it slightly. My old TV's overscan region varied by the overall luminosity of the frame, with a very bright frame somehow "contracting" so that the overscan region became smaller than if it were showing a very dark frame...

Most DVDs do include a small amount of black on the left and right sides of the frame. Possibly this is to increase compressibility slightly, though more likely it's to maintain correct aspect ratio. As far as KVCDs go, though, the main reason for adding overscan borders is to increase compressibility, which is why I made GripFit operate the way it does.

Saying "this is what you're MEANT to see" is kind of pointless, because even in a movie theatre edges get cut off. That's why directors never place anything important at the extreme edges of the frame. TV graphics are always offset by at least 32 pixels from the edge, because some TVs (especially older models) cut lots off the sides.

So by using the other method of resizing, which is to cut parts of the image from the left and right in order to give smaller borders on the top and bottom, not only are you increasing the amount of data that has to be compressed (and thus reducing the quality overall) but also you're going to lose EVEN MORE of the sides when you show it on a TV, because it'll cut some off too. What you end up with is even further from "what you're meant to see" than the method used by GripFit.

Oh, and hi, btw .
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  #90  
07-12-2004, 10:49 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi SansGrip
Welcome back, and thanks for clearing things up

-kwag
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