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  #241  
02-02-2004, 02:10 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Phil,

"Cuts off too much ..." means if the values get higher and higher reaching the right bottom corner the more high frequencies will be cut, means in easy words, the picture will look unsharper.

Do your test on DCT filter as I described here.
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8551

The dct filter does almost the same, he perfoms a DCT (as our matrix also does during encoding) and does afterwards a InverseDCT (and that will be done when our KVCDs will be played back by the mpeg decoder as the matrix also will be present in the encoded mpeg stream! you simply can use "restream" to suck out the matrix of a m2v or VOB)
In easy words (cracks would hit me now) its like a chiffring and dechiffring (I dont no other word) where the chiffred code is very eay to encode seen in compression. And when while playback the dechiffring performs, it could cause rounding errors.

Do a test and use Restream, ... open a m2v encoded with notch and allocade manually to the stream the std. matrix in restream .... when playing back, trash would come out
You know what I mean? Its like a Key to get the right INVERSE-calculation afterwards.

So why we get blocks, ok, of less bitrate, but we do use Notch???
Ok, a cutting matrix does give the encoder very precise quantisation orders "where" to cut and thats why very much developers of matrixes do say "XXX Matrix, best for AVG about 1200kbit", because if the bitrate goes even below on high bitrate needed scenes the encoder dis-respects the matrix and does his own quantisation party to archive the needed AVG Bitrate or final filesize and this in a very very agressive way where YOU don't have the control over that quantisation anymore.

And our little friend ffvfw mpeg2 seems to like playing its own quantisation party very very fast.

The last 5 Days I also did tests using diff. Matrixes where for example only the high freq. will be cut straight and Im still in.

If you remember I saw in Kwags samples that the result is sharper!
Means the high frequencies won't be cut that much (8bit values! also at max cut), ok .... therefore the plainsurfaces and mid-detailed parts in the image could be suffer more ... and in case of ffvfw the plain surfaces do suffer more. Its just a thing what the encoder prefers to do.

Every encoder gots his own way of quantisation process and thats why CCE TmpgEnc MCE ffvfw do output diff streams.

But every encoder does come with his own pro and cons. So everybody has to choose what he wants on pros and what he can tolerate on cons.

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  #242  
02-02-2004, 02:20 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Just for freaks if you want to try diverse Matrixes collected by Morpheus of doom9.de
Heres The Thread
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?t=82

(I just quoted the DVD relevant ones)
"Just" copy and paste

PS: Tonight I will do tests on ffvfw using "Angel 1CD 2.35 avg800 max1500" as it only does high cutting on high frequencies, ... we'll see

Code:
'CCE Standard' 
8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34, 
16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37, 
19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38, 
22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40, 
22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48, 
26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58, 
26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69, 
27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83 

16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23, 
17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24, 
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25, 
19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27, 
20,21,22,23,25,26,27,28, 
21,22,23,24,26,27,28,30, 
22,23,24,26,27,28,30,31, 
23,24,25,27,28,30,31,33 


'CCE Very low bitrate' 
8,16,19,22,26,27,99,99, 
16,16,22,24,27,29,99,99, 
19,22,26,27,29,34,99,99, 
22,22,26,27,29,34,99,99, 
22,26,27,29,32,35,99,99, 
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99, 
26,27,29,34,38,46,99,99, 
27,29,35,38,46,56,99,99 

16,17,18,19,20,21,99,99, 
17,18,19,20,21,22,99,99, 
18,19,20,21,22,23,99,99, 
19,20,21,22,23,24,99,99, 
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99, 
21,22,23,24,26,27,99,99, 
22,23,24,26,27,28,99,99, 
23,24,25,27,28,30,99,99 



'CCE Ultra low bitrate' 
8,16,19,22,99,99,99,99, 
16,16,22,24,99,99,99,99, 
19,22,26,27,99,99,99,99, 
22,22,26,27,99,99,99,99, 
22,26,27,29,99,99,99,99, 
26,27,29,32,99,99,99,99, 
26,27,29,34,99,99,99,99, 
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99 

16,17,18,19,99,99,99,99, 
17,18,19,20,99,99,99,99, 
18,19,20,21,99,99,99,99, 
19,20,21,22,99,99,99,99, 
20,21,22,23,99,99,99,99, 
21,22,23,24,99,99,99,99, 
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99, 
23,24,25,27,99,99,99,99 




'Angel 1CD 2.35 avg800 max1500' 
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29, 
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29, 
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35, 
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37, 
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,99, 
21,25,27,31,33,37,99,99, 
25,25,31,33,37,99,99,99, 
25,31,33,37,99,99,99,99 

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24, 
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25, 
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34, 
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99, 
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99, 
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99, 
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99, 
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99 



'Angel BestLow' 
8,16,19,22,26,27,29,99, 
16,16,22,24,27,29,34,99, 
19,22,26,27,29,34,34,99, 
22,22,26,27,29,34,37,99, 
22,26,27,29,32,35,40,99, 
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99, 
26,27,29,34,38,99,99,99, 
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99 

16,17,18,19,20,21,22,99, 
17,18,19,20,21,22,23,99, 
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,99, 
19,20,21,22,23,24,26,99, 
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99, 
21,22,23,24,26,99,99,99, 
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99, 
23,24,25,99,99,99,99,99 



'Angel BestVeryLow' 
8,16,19,22,26,27,99,99, 
16,16,22,24,27,29,99,99, 
19,22,26,27,29,34,99,99, 
22,22,26,27,29,34,99,99, 
22,26,27,29,32,35,99,99, 
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99, 
26,27,29,34,38,99,99,99, 
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99 

16,17,18,19,20,21,99,99, 
17,18,19,20,21,22,99,99, 
18,19,20,21,22,23,99,99, 
19,20,21,22,23,24,99,99, 
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99, 
21,22,23,24,26,99,99,99, 
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99, 
23,24,25,99,99,99,99,99 



'mb1 interlaced DV' 
8,13,13,17,17,21,21,28, 
13,13,17,17,19,21,23,30, 
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,34, 
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,48, 
17,19,19,19,23,28,34,48, 
19,19,23,25,28,32,34,48, 
19,21,23,25,28,32,34,48, 
21,21,25,25,28,32,34,48 

8,11,11,15,15,17,17,24, 
11,11,15,15,17,17,21,24, 
13,15,15,17,21,21,26,34, 
13,17,15,17,21,21,26,48, 
17,21,21,23,21,30,34,48, 
17,21,21,23,28,30,34,48, 
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48, 
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48 



'Andreas 78er Matrix' 
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29, 
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29, 
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35, 
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37, 
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46, 
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,58, 
25,25,31,33,37,40,54,69, 
25,31,33,37,40,54,69,78 

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24, 
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25, 
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34, 
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,46, 
17,19,21,23,26,32,46,56, 
17,21,23,26,32,46,56,66, 
22,22,28,30,46,56,66,69, 
22,28,30,46,56,66,69,78 



'Andreas einfache 99er Matrix' 
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29, 
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29, 
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35, 
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37, 
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46, 
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,58, 
25,25,31,33,37,40,54,69, 
25,31,33,37,40,54,69,78 

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24, 
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25, 
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34, 
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99, 
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99, 
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99, 
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99, 
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99 



'Andreas doppelte 99er Matrix' 
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29, 
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29, 
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35, 
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37, 
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46, 
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,99, 
25,25,31,33,37,40,99,99, 
25,31,33,37,40,99,99,99 

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24, 
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25, 
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34, 
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99, 
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99, 
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99, 
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99, 
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99 



'Andreas DivX01 (for DivX Sources)' 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,32, 
8, 8, 8,16,16,16,32,32, 
8, 8,16,16,16,32,32,32, 
8,16,16,16,32,32,32,32, 
16,16,16,32,32,32,32,32, 
16,16,32,32,32,32,32,32, 
16,32,32,32,32,32,32,32, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32 

8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
8,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16 



'Kika Cartoon Low' 
8,32,32,32,32,32,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,32,99,99,99, 
32,32,32,32,99,99,99,99, 
32,32,32,99,99,99,99,99 

8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16, 
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16 



'Kika Cartoon High' 
8,16,16,16,24,24,32,32, 
16,16,16,24,24,32,32,32, 
16,16,24,24,32,32,32,32, 
16,24,24,32,32,32,32,32, 
16,24,32,32,32,32,32,32, 
24,32,32,32,32,32,32,32, 
24,32,32,32,32,32,32,32, 
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32 

16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16, 
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,24
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  #243  
02-02-2004, 03:10 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi Inc,

Remember that almost every one of those matrixes (high frequencies), will be truncated by ffvfw
The MAX value for ffvfw is 63, so most of those matrixes will be useless with ffvfw.

-kwag
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  #244  
02-02-2004, 03:29 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latexxx
It isn't possible to encode true cbr using MPEG.
You mean "with that encoder" ?
Because there is not reason in the mpeg codec protocol that you can't do that. And all encoder can actually do CBR.
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  #245  
02-02-2004, 03:43 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
"Cuts off too much ..." means if the values get higher and higher reaching the right bottom corner the more high frequencies will be cut, means in easy words, the picture will look unsharper.
Okay, that's the same that we have with too hight value in DCT Filter. Thanks.

Quote:
Do your test on DCT filter as I described here.
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8551
Acutally I didn't wait for this post to know what how DCT filters works

Quote:
its like a chiffring and dechiffring (I dont no other word)
scramble/unscramble

Quote:
Do a test and use Restream, ... open a m2v encoded with notch and allocade manually to the stream the std. matrix in restream .... when playing back, trash would come out
Just make me think about something : WHO actually set the matrix in bbmpeg ?
If I follow you correctly, if you do not do that, all the KVCD muxed with bbmpeg will be unscramble with the wrong key

Quote:
So why we get blocks, ok, of less bitrate, but we do use Notch???
Ok, a cutting matrix does give the encoder very precise quantisation orders "where" to cut and thats why very much developers of matrixes do say "XXX Matrix, best for AVG about 1200kbit", because if the bitrate goes even below on high bitrate needed scenes the encoder dis-respects the matrix and does his own quantisation party to archive the needed AVG Bitrate or final filesize and this in a very very agressive way where YOU don't have the control over that quantisation anymore.
Okay, that was the point where I didn't join the pieces. Now I understand.

Quote:
And our little friend ffvfw mpeg2 seems to like playing its own quantisation party very very fast.
BTW, I can't install it on my Athlon ! I have big issues with MSVCR70.dll that is present but ffvfw installer complains about it

Is there someone that have an idea ?
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  #246  
02-02-2004, 04:04 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Just make me think about something : WHO actually set the matrix in bbmpeg ? If I follow you correctly, if you do not do that, all the KVCD muxed with bbmpeg will be unscramble with the wrong key
Tell me more ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
BTW, I can't install it on my Athlon ! I have big issues with MSVCR70.dll that is present but ffvfw installer complains about it
Is there someone that have an idea ?
I have Athlon and its instaling without problems. But I have had this problem with ffdshow few months ago on clean (without any instaled codec) machines. I just downloaded missing file and put it to winnt\system32 (maybe it needs to be regsvr32 'ed )
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  #247  
02-02-2004, 04:10 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus
Just make me think about something : WHO actually set the matrix in bbmpeg ? If I follow you correctly, if you do not do that, all the KVCD muxed with bbmpeg will be unscramble with the wrong key
Tell me more ...[/quote]
Look at into bbmpeg, just under the part where you fill the name of the video stream and audio stream you have a place to put the files for the 2 matrix.
According to what Inc just said, if you do not put somethign here, your image will be ugly.

I'm waiting for an answer from him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I just downloaded missing file and put it to winnt\system32 (maybe it needs to be regsvr32 'ed )
What do you think I did ? (I have two PC linked in network -). But it's not enought ! BTW they were already there as I told. And there is nowhere to find an INSTALLER for this sh!t (M$ product for sure !)
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  #248  
02-02-2004, 04:16 PM
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The builds just before the 2004 ones don't need the msvcrt files and they are based on the same cvs so don't know if you would see much difference anyways.

http://www.ligh.de/software/ffdshow/...w-20031128.exe

http://www.ligh.de/software/ffvfw/ffvfw-20031117.exe
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  #249  
02-02-2004, 04:24 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
What do you think I did ? (I have two PC linked in network -). But it's not enought ! BTW they were already there as I told. And there is nowhere to find an INSTALLER for this sh!t (M$ product for sure !)
Don't yell at me
The way I proposed work for me. I even create modified instaler for other people, and they have never declare problems. Any complaint to the Bi-G
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  #250  
02-02-2004, 04:27 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Thank oyu Dano, I will see.

But in fact I have two problems : ffdshow does not install at all (but I do not need it actually). But ffvfw installs itself once (the second install fails because of the dll) but... I DON'T HAVE IT IN VDUB !

EDIT: OKAY ! With release given by Dano it works. But is the encoder really the same quality ? Inc, which was the version you used and taht gave problems to you ?
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  #251  
02-02-2004, 05:04 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Phil,
Inc is online but probably doing something else.
Though I don't know for sure which build he was using when he had problems,
I can assure you I had issues with the one Dano has just told you to use.
I'm using iNTEL cpu and I didn't have any problems, so I went to check on an AMD cpu and I also didn't find any problems installing it.
Any chance you're running a French version of WinXP?
Try checking with a friend who is also running French WinXP.
I say this because I've had some issues with Portuguese WinXX so many times that now I only use English versions
C ya
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  #252  
02-02-2004, 05:11 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
Any chance you're running a French version of WinXP?
It seems the problem is deeper : I can't even install half of the patch provided on windows update ! The install fails and for sure this "wonderfull" M$ crap don't even tell why
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  #253  
02-02-2004, 05:42 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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@Phil
We sure could be running something stronger on our PCs nowadays.
I mean WinXP is nice and all but it's still too dumm.
Suddenly when we least expect it, we start seeing the OS failing because of some rather buggy
application we installed last week...
That's just something the OS should try to solve by itself...
It should already have some repair routines like we see on some not as good looking OSes...
Worst: It's got own willing
Good luck Phil.
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  #254  
02-02-2004, 05:51 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
That's just something the OS should try to solve by itself...
It should already have some repair routines like we see on some not as good looking OSes...
Worst: It's got own willing
In fact I just foudn the problem : that was a service that I stopped (ie desactivated) days before and was mandatory
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  #255  
02-02-2004, 06:27 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Friends I had a very nice time with an ugly bad converted PAL capture where someone before did a conversion from 23.976 to 25.000 which has ben send via cable Blending, interlacing and everything which gives headache!.............. THIS SUCKS! 2 Hours to solve that using Selectevery() etc.

So Phil,

Yep you're right, our encodings would come out ugly IF the matrix wouldn't be placed within the video mpeg, as I did read in the www.

If you open Restream you can see that its not only the VOB or the mpeg which can be opened, its also m2v m1v source etc.
That means as said the matrix values for descrambling are within the encoded videostream.

Its nice, just when you did load that video stream, move with the mouse over the little floppy disk "safe" symbol in the matrix sections and a pop up will appear which hows you all the values.

By this you can get the orig Matrix where your orig DVD has been encoded with.



@ Kwag

You're right, as I forgot that the ffvfw matrix is only 8bit in its values, but we still can use that matrix
Code:
'Angel 1CD 2.35 avg800 max1500' 
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29, 
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29, 
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35, 
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37, 
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,99, 
21,25,27,31,33,37,99,99, 
25,25,31,33,37,99,99,99, 
25,31,33,37,99,99,99,99 

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24, 
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25, 
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34, 
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99, 
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99, 
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99, 
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99, 
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99
By copying the values into the matrix section of ffvfw, just replacing all the 99 with 64 and add in the avisynthscript at the end a

DCTfilterD(4)

At least at the intra section this will all 4 last diagonals cut (like 99) and in the non intra section, well only one diagonal will be still used with lower cutting parameters, but by this we can try.
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  #256  
02-02-2004, 06:33 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
That means as said the matrix values for descrambling are within the encoded videostream.
That's what I thought (I never understood why bbmpeg allow to give matrix files. BTW, I do not use bbmpeg )

Quote:
By this you can get the orig Matrix where your orig DVD has been encoded with.
That is a new answer for the guy on other thread taht was asking "how to distinghuish regular MPEG from a KVCD one"
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  #257  
02-02-2004, 06:42 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
That is a new answer for the guy on other thread taht was asking "how to distinghuish regular MPEG from a KVCD one"
Where? The mpeg4 HVS matrix comparison?

Lets cut da frequencies!

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  #258  
02-02-2004, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
That is a new answer for the guy on other thread taht was asking "how to distinghuish regular MPEG from a KVCD one"
Where? The mpeg4 HVS matrix comparison?
Fortunaly for newbies, while you are all testing ffvfw, I'm still reading the forum and helping them

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....910&highlight=
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  #259  
02-02-2004, 07:19 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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We should add to our signature ....

"away in *ffvfw headache holidays* will be back soon ....


Uops:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Inc, which was the version you used and taht gave problems to you ?
It was the build from Nov.2003! Since I updated to both (ffdshow/ffvfw)latest builds (I think they are the Jan.2004 ones) the big problems where gone.
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  #260  
02-02-2004, 08:15 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
It was the build from Nov.2003! Since I updated to both (ffdshow/ffvfw)latest builds (I think they are the Jan.2004 ones) the big problems where gone.
That is what I thought. Fortunally I managed to have the 2004 version to be installed and working.
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