Best SVHS deck for recording from WV-F250 camera?

[Dead Christmas]

Howdy!

I'm trying to decide on a VCR/Editor Deck for producing and recording footage from my WV-F250. However, I'm not entirely sure which one to pick.

I see a lot of "professional" VTR units on eBay, many of them are being advertised as used in universities, or hospitals. (cool, in an eerie way.) However, I also see that a lot of the more "prosumer" gear is more recommended, while these editor decks have very little feedback on them at all (that I can find). These editor decks, however, appear to have many features that I find desirable! Manual level-control, dubbing (I make music-videos), several line-ins and outs, and all these other knobs and buttons that would likely allow me to fine-tune my tapes. Needless to say, they look very, very appealing!

Only bad part is that they weigh A TON, and I've got to find a way to belt all these VTRs and cameras, power supplies, etc to my body or a backpack. (I record a lot of Airsoft, so I'm constantly finding myself moving around to get better angles on the action, and I already struggle to do that by not having the components available for movement at a moment's notice. I hope to have a carry handle welded into the next VTR unit, so that I can operate it for image adjustment, alongside the camera (( it does not have the dock-able recorder)), before moving around again for a different shot.)

I'm not looking for anything specific, just something nice and sturdy, with a plethora of options for customization. Like those editor decks. But, maybe they aren't all that they're cracked up to be...?

Also, I really, really, REALLY, do not want anything that records audio as PCM, or the video as DVC, onto the tape.

Thanks for the help!

[NJRoadfan]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? I don't want to sound rude or anything, but something like a Go-Pro or small solid state camcorder would be more suited for this type of shooting. Heck, 15 or so years ago when I was doing B-roll footage in high school I would ditch their provided VHS camcorder units and just use my personal Hi8 camcorder just to have something light and easily maneuverable for sports shots.

[Dead Christmas]

Funny, I had a GoPro 3 Black and I didn't really like it it. The video quality was great, though.

It's not so much that I'm going to be using these for mobile-recording, I was just offering some background to what I use my devices for. I'm just looking for some feedback on these professional decks, and if they're not any good, then someone could point me in the right direction.

What's Hi8?

[dpalomaki]

Hi8 is High Band 8mm video, provides higher resolution than standard 8mm video. Uses a higher grade of video tape too, but same form factor. In general Hi8 gear will play 8mm tape, but not the other way around. Hi8 was mainly from Sony and Canon (with a few other players as well). Hi8 is similar to S-VHS in terms of video quality; one can say that Hi8 is to 8mm video as S-VHS is to VHS.

Is this an initial video acquisition project? Unless you are into retro, there is no reason I can think of to shoot or record to a VHS or 8mm format these days.

I would consider getting a DV Video Walkman (e.g., Sony GV-D300) and recording to it for portable SD acquisition from a SD camera.

However, modern HD camcorders are economical and give excellent result, are light weight, very portable, have long battery life, low cost media, easy to edit, etc. so I would have to have a compelling reason to go retro.

[Dead Christmas]

I'm not sure what you mean by "initial video acquisition". If you mean that I'll be using the deck to record new video from my WV-F250, then yes, it's for initial video acquisition.

Yes, I'm very much into "retro" gear. Though, I'm much more attracted to the analog-tape part of it, which is why I don't want PCM audio, or something like DVC PRO, especially since (from the compression figures I've read about the format) DVC Pro is very compressed...

[NJRoadfan]

Even though its "compressed", you really don't notice too many artifacts with DV family compression. Its nothing like bitrate constrained MPEG2 found on DVDs. Its also very edit friendly since it is a intraframe compression scheme. I've shot MiniDV and Digital-8 (same format, different tape) and the quality easily blows away the analog tape formats. PCM audio used by DV is completely uncompressed and slightly above CD quality (tape formats sample at 16bit/48khz vs. CD Audio's 16bit/44.1khz).

[dpalomaki]

Maybe you need something like a Atomos Ninja recorder coupled with a Analog to SDI converter (e.g., AJA V2Digital). High quality digital 4:2:2 ProRes, etc.

[lordsmurf]

VCRs from hospitals tend to be yucky. And anyway, they're really old. These machines were NEVER suggested, and were mostly mediocre gear marketed to medical facilities. For example, SP only, and only with certain tapes (that are no longer made).

DVC is 4:2:2, and superior to VHS. Same for PCM. What's wrong with that?

@NJRoadfan: Really? HS was only 15 years ago. Now I feel really old. Thanks.

SHOOTING with DV is fine.
It's the CONVERSION using DV (NTSC 4:1:1) that's a no-no for quality.

[Dead Christmas]

Thank you all for the feedback so far!

Man, that's really disappointing that such impressive looking machines would prove so terrible. I'm actually very sad, as these machines looked so customization-friendly.

I'm not sure I understand the quality between shooting DVC vs converting to it? What do you mean?

[lordsmurf]

DV camera to shoot = good
Canopus/DataVideo DV boxes to convert VHS to DV = bad

[Dead Christmas]

So, something like the Panasonic AG-1980 would be best suited for my needs, then? Or maybe there's a sleeper unit out there that doesn't cost 200$ just for a working one?

[lordsmurf]

The AG1980P is a good playback VCR. But for recording, you have many options...

Well ... sort of. VHS (and S-VHS) are dead formats. Tape are no longer made, and the recording equipment tends to be well past its prime. To even get many excellent playback VCRs to work these days, you need to service them back into like-new condition to the tune of $100-400.

[Dead Christmas]

Maybe you have some particular favorites from the past?

[lordsmurf]

In the 90s, I really liked the JVC HR-S3600, 4600, 3800, and 4800 units. I mostly used them for cable TV recording.

The 4x00 had the flying erase heads, and were therefore better for recording.

I actually still have some left, but they're in currently unknown condition. After my medical issue in 2012, I've never again used them. Someday that will hopefully change again. For now, they're in storage.

[dpalomaki]

The AG-1980 power requirement is rated 33 watts at 120 VAC and it weighs about 15 pounds. To this add the weight of a power supply (long cords or battery and inverter). If trying to run with it in a backpack, not clear what the movement would do for accurate tracking.

The advantages of the DVC format compared to VHS/S-VHS for initial acquisition include bandwidth (resolution) and signal to noise ratio.

If you insist on the S-VHS/VHS format, maybe look for something like a Panasonic AG-7400 that is designed for mobile work.
http://www.surplusserver.com/products/Photo-Video/165/Panasonic_AG-7400_Portable_Recorder.html
(or for the risk taker) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-AG-7400-S-VHS-Portable-Professional-Video-Cassette-Recorder-Player-/361270857791

[Dead Christmas]

I don't mean to de-value your suggestion, Dpalomaki, but if what Smurf said is true, then that AG-7400 might be just as much of a "crapshoot" as the other professional units. Weight isn't an issue, since I can just get a handle drilled into the VTR like my current Emerson, and carry it with my left hand.

I'm a bit more concerned with the quality of the audio, rather than the video, though. do JVC decks (on average) have better sound than Panasonic units?

[lordsmurf]

For recording, JVC and Panasonic are the same.

[NJRoadfan]

Remember, you are dealing with equipment that is in many cases approaching or exceeding 20 years old and had lead rough lives. Many of these decks may never have been serviced as well.

As for the WV-F250, how is it configured? The "default" studio setup usually requires a "remote camera unit" (RCU) that provides power to the unit and breaks out the input/output. It connects to a multi-pin port on the camera itself. That portable Panasonic VCR directly interfaces in its place (provided you can find a cable), or another option is to replace the studio module with a docking VTR. That camera seems to have been on the market long enough to receive a DVCPro docking VTR (AJ-D90).

Also consider the weight, nobody really liked carrying around 30lbs of equipment 20 years ago. When things got smaller and maintained the same video quality, the pros jumped on it immediately. Today you can buy equipment for $200-300 that greatly exceeds the quality of a top notch camera/VTR used in broadcast television 20 years ago AND fits in your pocket.

[Dead Christmas]

Funny you should mention the AG-7450 (the docking unit), as I specifically avoided auctions listing that configuration once I learned that it recorded in DVC PRO.

I actually have two power units, one is for the camera itself, the other is for the WV-VF65 that I have welded its "hood" of onto the front of a PASGT. The unit for the VF65 actually has video inputs and outputs, but they're BNC connectors. Thankfully, I have converters for composite. They're both powered by this nifty device I got on eBay a year back: http://www.amazon.com/Duracell-DRPP3...with+ac+outlet

The camera has it's own power unit, too. It's not exactly the right one, but it works. It's a Sony CMA-7, and it has video output, too. I can cram all the power supplies into my duffel bag, but I've found that the camera and VTR must be carried, I have found that I cannot access them fast enough by having them in the duffel bag. Fortunately, my Emerson weighs mere pounds. Humorously, I actually find myself almost pushing it off my "tower" of VCRs just by pushing the buttons alone.

[NJRoadfan]

The AG-7450 is actually a SVHS unit going by the manual. Its period correct for the camera. The AJ-D90 is DVCPro however.