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  #1  
11-09-2011, 09:53 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...67#post2119667

Last edited by unclescoob; 11-09-2011 at 10:05 PM.
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  #2  
11-09-2011, 11:30 PM
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Every website has its own collective personality.

This site, for example, is an extension of a professional video/media services business, so there is a heavy bias towards using best methods, and that sometimes comes at the cost of using costly or semi-costly hardware and software. We're also fairly strict about shenanigans from members (rudeness, abuse, vulgarity, etc), as that's simply not the sort of image we wish to portray or be known for.

Videohelp is a great site, but it has a heavy history and user base that is geared towards copying DVDs (as opposed to actually creating them), hacking DVD players, and using freeware tools even when they're 10 times more needy than a good paid software. Not even an expensive program necessarily, either! Think of something like the $37 Womble MPEG-VCR. Note that I've been a member there for almost a decade now, and have somewhere north of 30,000 posts.

Avisynth is a good program, but I'll wholly agree that too many people are acting as if it's the best video program ever, capable of doing everything and anything. Somebody at VH recently had the audacity to claim that Avisynth was an NLE (non-linear video editor) with just as much power as Adobe Premiere. That's so ridiculous as to be stupid, ignorant and utterly moronic. Some of them are Doom9 refugees, or Doom10 refugees, for whatever reason. (Possibly just to escape the madness of egos that sometimes infest both sites. Good sites, but some snotty members in the ranks. Trollish, even.)

You asked some easy questions, and got somewhat convoluted answers. For example:
Quote:
What is the best way to find out what I'm working with here? Would g-spot tell me?
No, Gspot won't help, but you can often run a short test clip through VirtualDub's IVTC filter, and then use your own eyes to judge if it's inverse telecining okay, or if it's just getting butchered.

Quote:
My source is a 29.97fps NTSC retail DVD.
Even hearing something like this, I don't jump too quickly to the conclusion that the footage is guarantee hard interlaced, and not possible to IVTC.

... I would suggest, however, that you could also use Avisynth to deinterlace with an advanced method, should IVTC fail. I just finished doing that for an important personal project, and I'm actually writing the guide tonight (though it may not get published for a while, as I like to slowly proof and add sample images/clips).

... but you don't have to.

There's a few good Avisynth users at Videohelp: poisondeathray, jagabo, manono, couple of others whose names evade me at this late hour.

__________________

Some of this discussion actually reminds me of my contact lenses. With glasses, I can get something like 20/15 vision, but glasses suck. Contacts are not available in my exact prescription, but I can come close. Something like 85% on one measurement, 95% on another. It's good enough to not be blind, even if I can't see a pimple on a gnat's butt from 20 paces.

Sometimes people want to insist you use Avisynth for "best" quality, not comprehending that you don't desire to sport spectacles (to again borrow from my glasses analogy). And I don't mean "best" as in very good, but "best" as in exceptional overkill, versus the result from a so-called inferior method that is also within tolerances of what qualifies as excellent quality. For whatever reason, these folks are determined to make you learn long and complicated methods for a result that doesn't differ significantly from the results you desire.

That's often how I see Avisynth vs VirtualDub, for a great many filters.

Some folks flip out far too easily on colorspace conversions between essentially lossless domains: YUY2, YV12, RGB24 (even if Rec.601). Each of these conversions is well-handled by VirtualDub and Avisynth, I would add. It's not like you're taking 4:2:2 and whacking it down to 4:1:1 like DV does. Ironically, the same individuals will often tell you DV is a high quality video format compared against 4:2:2 lossless methods.

There's also something to be said for professional accuracy vs acceptable homemade quality, assuming both are HQ.

Some people would turn all of that around on me, on topics like VCRs and TBCs, but it's not the same. In those cases, it's the difference between high quality and crap, not between variations of high quality.

You can learn a lot from some of those Avisynth users, so don't piss them off too much, should you ever decide to try your hand at scripting. Quite a few advanced methods are only possible in Avisynth, after all. But I can understand your frustration with trying to use VirtualDub, and possibly being ignored when stating Avisynth isn't the tool you care to use.

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  #3  
11-10-2011, 09:11 AM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Smurf, is it ok if I post this link on my videohelp.com thread? My goal is NOT to start any wars here. But these people seriously need to read this.
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  #4  
11-10-2011, 10:08 AM
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I don't mind, no. Most of the Avisynth users you're communicating with in that specific thread are people I respect and communicate with on a semi-regular basis (either in threads, or in PMs), and they're not dumb by any means, so they should realize I'm not attacking them in any way.

But I do bring an alternate observation to the table -- that while Avisynth may be "the best" in some tasks, VirtualDub is second-best, and can suffice for a home user not wanting to get in over his head (which is easy to do, in the complex world of video). In their zeal to help you find the best way to solve your issue, I think they've accidentally overlooked the complexity, and too quickly dismissed the almost-as-good methods that you're clearly intent on using and seeking help with. Let's put it this way: If you're having issues on the second-best easier method, how much hope is there that you'll quickly master the much harder best method? Pretty slim. Master one first, and tackle the other one later. If nothing else, then you'll see how they differ with your own eyes.

Just remember to be grateful that you're getting free help. When I started, there was nobody to help -- free or paid. It's an incredibly different place online now, compared to what it was 10+ years ago.

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  #5  
11-10-2011, 10:30 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Smurf, speaking of IVTC and deinterlacing:

I recall asking about deinterlacing first (with Avisynth, specifically using (yadoff, I think?) before filtering.

I was told that it was unecessary, and you agreed (in that particular thread). Then, in another thread, when I brought it up to you, you stated that it all depends on what I'm doing, which I will admit left me a little bit confused (but not hopelessly so). Here's my question in regards to that:

The video is a 29.97fps NTSC 80's cartoon retail DVD rip. I tried attaching a small sample here, but it's not going through for some reason.

But I can tell you that, when I play it frame by frame, it shows that only 1 frame is interlaced out of every 5. do you think I should deinterlace this before applying the filters that I did, and then weave back? And if I did decide to go with this decision, even if it turnes out that I deinterlaced unecessarily, would I be ruining my video? I really do wish to obtain the best possible quality with these cartoons so what I really wish to know is: If I do it on a 'better safe than sorry' basis, even if I am not gaining anything, am I losing?

Last edited by unclescoob; 11-10-2011 at 10:49 PM.
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  #6  
11-11-2011, 09:32 PM
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I'll probably be too busy to visit videohelp.com regularly for at least several more months. You getting what you need there?

And the you can ask here on this forum, too, of course -- there's a number of regular members, and you'll get a reply for most questions within a couple of days. A lot of the questions asked in this forum turn into ideas for guides that need revising or writing.

Just checking up.

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  #7  
11-11-2011, 09:43 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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No, I'm not getting what I need there. I'm not really going back there again.

I'm confused. I just tried the the TFM() TDecimate() filters, as they advised BEFORE applying NeatVideo in V-dub. Is this even necessary?
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  #8  
11-11-2011, 09:45 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Then I read that if I open my VOB in AviSynth (convert to an AVS file, of course), convert the colorspace to YUY2 or RGB, then feed the AVS to VirtualDub -- VirtualDub's deinterlacers will work properly. True? not true? unnecessary??
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  #9  
11-11-2011, 09:56 PM
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Start a new thread here, in the restoration forum, going over source, output goals (reason for restoring), and maybe even give some sample images/clips. jmac has been here a lot lately, as has deter, and both of them probably have advice in addition to my own. So do that, we'll look at it, and then see about suggesting a perfect script and workflow for you.

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  #10  
11-11-2011, 10:05 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Smurf, I really appreciate this man.

I did not forget my promise to you on the Premium membership (not like you ever mentioned it, just for the record and so no one thinks otherwise. I want to contribute because I have grown fond of this site..plus I could use the one-to-one, in all fairness ). Just my timeliness on it has been off on that. Planning on doing that before the weekend is over. But you guys really have been helpful to me here with my work. Even if I did not need help again here, I'm donating because you guys really are helpful and KNOW how to speak to people. That's worth more than money. I know I once acted like a..well...I apologized for that. But you know. I brought my videohelp.com "street" b.s. here, forgetting that thedigitalfaq.com is a completely different ballgame. Much respect to you guys here.

You guys are the true guys to go to. Not knocking videohelp.com but, as you and I have discussed before, it's ...let's just leave that alone.

In any event, I'm exhausted. I am going to start this thread tomorrow morning when I'm fresh. Just one question, Smurf: I tried loading a short clip here before, but wasn't able to. Should I load it from one of my video files in drive "C" as opposed to from my desktop? I'm thinking that may have been why it did not load for me.
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  #11  
11-11-2011, 10:17 PM
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The maximum upload for a Free Member is 7.99MB, 15.99MB for Premium Members.
It has to be a pre-approved file type (MPG, AVI, M2V, etc -- there's quite a few that were added).
The server has a hard timeout on scripts -- something like 60-90 seconds. So slow connections (you, not the site) can cause problems.

So any of those reasons is why it may not have loaded.

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  #12  
11-11-2011, 10:24 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Gotcha. Thanks. I'll get to this tomorrow
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