Panasonic DMR-ES15 PAL b&w capture?

[mts1]

Hi,

Got myself Panasonic DMR-ES15 to play with. Everything is good. However, there is an issue.
When capture starts it takes about a second for DMR-ES15 to produce color video.
The same thing happens when one video ends, and after some time of tape noise another one starts, then again, it starts with B/W video, and in about a second the color comes back.

So, the question is if it is the model and every unit does the same thing or it is the unit to blame.

Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

I've never seen that.
I have PAL ES10, in use with PAL VCRs (JVC and Panasonic S-VHS, test with lousy Samsung Worldwide VHS)

I've never even heard of this from PAL ES15 owners.

[mts1]

So, it must be the unit then...

[lordsmurf]

It would be bad science to jump to that immediate conclusion.

Double-check the capture card, the wires, the VCR, the TBCs. Issues can sometimes hide, and not be where initially thought.

What does your full workflow look like here?

[mts1]

Right now it is
Canon UC9 -> S-Video -> Panasonic DMR-ES15 -> S-Video -> Sony RDR-HXD890 -> Components-> Magewell Pro Capture HDMI/AJA KONA LHe+ -

Never happened without Panasonic. The tape has multiple separate videos. If an empty gap between videos is wide enough, then the video starts as B/W.
Sony RDR-HXD890 set to PAL in contrary to default Auto.

[lordsmurf]

I feel safe eliminating the Canon Hi8 camera without further inspection.

Check the s-video cables, ideally swap out.
Also check with composite.

What is the purpose of the Sony RDR-HXD890 in that workflow? Are you using it for component output? If so, why? You don't gain anything from component. In fact, you may regress some.

I'd look at the Sony recorder as the weak link here. Multiple factors make it likely. The processing from s-video to component is especially suspect. It may have some sort of strength requirement or delay issue to the output.

I don't overly like Magewell/Aja cards for consumer analog formats, but I would suspect these are fine.

Sony recorder is #1 most likely.

However, it could be the ES15 output not cooperating with the Sony. Which is at fault there?

The scientific method will never do you wrong. The problem is having, or buying, swappable components to do the process of elimination.

[mts1]

It would be hard to find logical explanation why color is lost in cable after empty tape and it comes back in about a second after video is found. Also, I use this cable for a long time. It's not like it burned out

RDR-HXD890 allows to adjust black and white levels (black and white enhancers) to offset "hot" (or "cold") Panasonic and other other devices in the chain.
It also has noise reduction and it outputs very clean signal. I use for a long time. It works perfectly with VCRs with TBC on one side and Magewell/AJA KONA on the other.
The reason for having components cable is to eliminate mixing 2 chroma signals into one S-Video wire and then demux them on the other side for further processing.
Also, Magewell works better with components.
I see no harm here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

However, it could be the ES15 output not cooperating with the Sony. Which is at fault there?

The scientific method will never do you wrong. The problem is having, or buying, swappable components to do the process of elimination.

Yes, that's the only hope here. I will eliminate Sony from the chain to see if it will have any effect.

[RB_Free]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Hi,

Got myself Panasonic DMR-ES15 to play with. Everything is good. However, there is an issue.
When capture starts it takes about a second for DMR-ES15 to produce color video.
The same thing happens when one video ends, and after some time of tape noise another one starts, then again, it starts with B/W video, and in about a second the color comes back.

So, the question is if it is the model and every unit does the same thing or it is the unit to blame.

Thanks.

The same thing happens with my workflow:
LG VC-8804 -> composite -> Panasonic DMR-EH55 (same PAL version as the ES15 but with HDD) -> S-Video -> Avermedia H727 (recording with the Avermedia software).
At the start of the recording, there are 2-3 black and white frames, but if the tape is badly damaged, it takes 1-2 seconds to return to color during playback.
I’ve also picked up an ES10 now and have only done one test so far. It does the same thing at the start of the recording; however, during a damaged section in the middle, it recovered the color faster because the image stabilized sooner than on the other unit. I’m not sure yet if it will have the same issue with a very heavily damaged segment.

[mts1]

Nothing helps. Connected ES15 directly to the card - the result was the same.
Also, there is a small correction. There is no issue when starting to play a video - it starts in color.
The B/W starts only after a noisy gap between videos. Nothing else affects it, no FF, no Rew, no Pause.
I tried even composite connection from camcorder instead of S-Video. It didn't have any effect.

[RB_Free]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Nothing helps. Connected ES15 directly to the card - the result was the same.
Also, there is a small correction. There is no issue when starting to play a video - it starts in color.
The B/W starts only after a noisy gap between videos. Nothing else affects it, no FF, no Rew, no Pause.
I tried even composite connection from camcorder instead of S-Video. It didn't have any effect.

By 'the start,' I meant the beginning of the tape—when you press play from the VCR's blue screen, the first 2-3 frames are in black and white. After that, if you fast-forward, stop, or restart, it stays in color. The chroma is lost only at the moment the video signal is lost (or during a damaged section), and it takes a moment to lock back on. With a composite signal, however, you should see color almost instantly (faster than s-video). Anyway, on a very damaged tape, I tried capturing a heavily degraded segment even via composite, but it stayed in black and white for 5-10 minutes.

But if you plug the camera directly into the capture card (bypassing the ES15), do you see those segments in color?

[mts1]

By start I meant you press Play button in the middle of the video, not at the beginning of the tape.
I didn't try to connect camcorder directly to capture card. I had it connected to Sony RDR-HXD890 - didn't have any issue. The first frame after a noisy gap, even a damaged one, came in color.

[radiokom]

Looks like system "auto detection" is enabled somewhere. For example SECAM is detected as PAL.
I am not familiar with ES15, I know most ES10 are PAL/NTSC only but some has PAL/NTSC/SECAM input and NTSC/PAL output.
Check ES15 settings in menu. If there is auto option, disable it and set correct system.

[mts1]

Yeah, I thought about that. The only switch I found there is a manual one between PAL and NTSC systems for connected TV type.
No auto mode.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I've never seen that.
I have PAL ES10, in use with PAL VCRs (JVC and Panasonic S-VHS, test with lousy Samsung Worldwide VHS)

I've never even heard of this from PAL ES15 owners.

I know why nobody reports that. It is because most VCRs/camcorders have "blue screen" covering static noise.
In such scenario ES15 never gets the noise from tapes and never losses the chroma sync.

I switched from Canon UC9 camcorder, which doesn't cover the noise, to monstrous T2000, which already has gray screen to cover the noise, but doesn't have yet the infamous Sony's vertical green bars on the edge of the frames.
That seems working now.

[mts1]

Most likely will selling Panasonic DMR-ES15 soon.
Does anyone interested before I put on eBay?