Video mixer is PAL, not NTSC?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmichaelb

Well, put it this way...
do your ES10/15's pass garbled video without drops or inserts,

No.

Quote:

and still keep audio in sync?

Often, but not always.

Understand that these situations also tend to make the ES10/15 AGC freak out, and it's not unheard of for the unit go into some sort of fault mode ("no signal" error).

I'm adding a 16 second clip of the opening of my first tape, where my cable provider messed up and didn't actually authorize my box yet, so the first 3 hours was a children's show. My first tape was actually tape #2, so 1 1/2 tapes of Romper Room or something, and something called Spilled Milk. After calling them, they fixed it up within a few minutes... that's why I needed to borrow some of my friend's sources. But the clip itself rolls as it changes over for a few seconds... without the ES16, it inserts frames like crazy. With the ES16, it looks like it did on a CRT, with no drops or inserts, audio still in sync.

Quote:

Strangely, when capturing with AmaRecTV with the Hauppauge and no ES16, it still kept the audio in sync after the inserts. It's only in VirtualDub that I found the audio go out of sync after inserts.

AmaRecTV is/was a "analog streamer" program (a quaint use of the term "broadcast"). It was essentially the precursor to OBS, which is digital streaming/"broadcast" recording software. Neither are well suited to videotapes. Both were actually create for streaming videogames. AmaRecTV using analog PVR/ingest cards, OBS using webcams. AmaRecTV is Japanese software, that appears to be attuned to certain Japanese capture cards (like the GV-USB2), and rejects lots of other cards.

Preface: I never worked in broadcasting, but friends did (large market CBS affiliate, etc), and I kept up on the new methods/tech (Broadcast Engineering magazine subscription for almost 20 years until it ceased). I had even considered applying to some open roles in my market (but chose another better-paying path, ie studios). /preface

Broadcast (and streaming) software approaches video differently, and is solely concerned with continuity and sync of signal. It treats dropped frames, etc, as speed bumps, and is not concerned with them unless it overruns the buffers, or happens repeatedly. Some % of dropped/inserted frames are expected (due to imperfections in airwaves, satellites, TCP, etc), and in fact part of the multicast transport stream specs. Dropped packets = dropped frames, inserts are made at hops. This can affect reporting.

Video ingest software is concerned about integrity of the signal, and dropped/inserted frames are always unacceptable, and reported as such. There is no understanding or consideration for external forces like satellites/etc.

A few vocal people online refuse to understand this, often presenting "evidence' that isn't from controlled experiments. It's really nothing more than "defending their purchase" (or lack of purchasing something else, something better). I do believe AmaRecTV may make better use of RAM buffers, but reporting is still suspect given the intended streaming/"broadcast" usage. I have seem many so-called "good captures" that "reported no dropped frames" but the frame loss/insert is visually obvious in an editor. There's no magic tool to detect the loss, no Avisynth/etc scripts.

If you're just capturing old videos of junior spitting up peas ("here comes the airplane!"), you may not care. But if you're working on something important, it'll be unreliable.

Quote:

I'm assuming the ES10/15's are the same though(?). The only possible difference in machines, is all the guides I've read about using it for passthrough, they say only the rear input works when fixing flagging and tearing, but I found the front input also works on the ES16. Unless I misread the guides(?). I'm using the rear ports anyway.

There's actually several models that are almost identical. Almost. It's not just the guide/etc consumer TV features, but it's obviously in the chip firmware/software as well. The strength of the TBC varied some across models. The ES10 was strongest, and that was apparently deemed too much for unknown reasons. The ES15 backed off a bit, and added mild AGC issues. The ES25 is stronger than ES10 in some ways, but more like ES15 in others.

This is nuance that you'll only start to notice after using them for many tapes, over a period of many years. It's also why I sometimes insist a person seek a specific model, not just "ES10/15 type" (like ES16, ES25, etc). The ES25 is actually not safe, as there have been models that behave like the non-TBC ES20, hence I dissuade others from getting it. I think Panasonic used old parts or software in those bad ES25 units, somewhere. ES20 is 100% bad, no line TBC(ish), no passthrough, LSI based with 720x on resolutions and crunchy DVD quality (so literally 100% useless unit, all flawed).

What you're observing and experiencing is on the better end of "to be expected". You're exceeding expectations with your budget setup, getting good results, and that's what I like to see.

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmichaelb

Well, put it this way...
do your ES10/15's pass garbled video without drops or inserts

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No.

Well that's interesting... I thought the ES10/15's would have handled the garbled video the same as the ES16's... or at least thought the ES15's would have. Even the mixer handles it just as well. Maybe look out for an ES16 and pick one up to test yourself. Pair it with a Pinnacle.

-- merged --

Well it seems there's a thread here from 2021 showing that the DMR-ES16 is actually a Canadian exclusive, not just a Canadian label and menu software. It has an analog tuner, and is DivX compatible as well.

Canadian only models:

'08-'07?_ES-36___________Canadian, NTSC, VHS, +-R, +-RW, DL*, RAM, DV, Divx,(Very similar to '06 US ES-35v), Manual,
'08-'07?_ES-16___________Canadian, NTSC, +-R, +-RW, DL*, RAM, DV, Divx,(Very similar to '06 US ES-15)

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-dmr-es15.html
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/pan...tures.1134909/
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/tho...r-es16.883936/

[lordsmurf]

The ES16 isn't really any different from the ES10/15 internally. The ES16 isn't wide production enough to get it's own. It's surely still using one of the mid/late cycle MN chips for the strong+crippled Panasonic line TBC.

But what you refer to with the continuity here is really the non-TBC frame sync. It doesn't really have a buffer, otherwise it'd be an actual frame TBC.

I think you can just chalk it up to your recording VCRs were better than normal. Also high quality tapes, not reusing the tapes. I know I have such luck on VHS tapes that I made with certain rebadged Sharp VCRs (Montgomery Ward) from the mid 90s. I still run them through full TBC setups, but the timing is stable. I also used quality TDK and JVC tapes, not junk.

If you want to analyze "why" in video, sometimes you have to resist the temptation to hastily claim "that's it!". There are just so many factors. I'm not sure how you see this thread, but I see a mystery that defies known knowns based on data so far. But that just means we're missing the data to make a conclusion.

I'm mostly just thrilled you're having a good experience, using gear you can afford, on a recording that I may hit you up for.

[bmichaelb]

I'll take a pic of the internals after my capture finishes. Not sure if I'll see the chip though... there's a heatsink on it.

I have 3 tapes in EP with hockey games on them... Canucks/Ducks in Japan for 2 games, and a Team Canada Men's Hockey at the Olympics. All 3 are used more than once. And the first 3 of my Woodstock tapes are 2nd gens of my friend's tapes... from SP to SP. Not sure what happened with those though... James Brown seems to have a red glow on the left side of his blue shirt, even if the background is yellow or green. I don't see it on my tapes of James Brown in the Overnight session, so I'm guesing it was the Go-Video deck I used to dub them. Camcorder Color Denoise works a bit on it though.

Strangely... all my tapes are Fuji, and my friend's tapes were Sony, then dubbed to Fuji, and they all have red streaks when captured using the JVC's Edit mode. But... I seem to have 2 tapes in the mix that are TDK... I seem to recall running out of tapes, having to run to the store for more. I guess the TDK's got mixed in that way. But... the TDK's don't have those red streaks, even though they were recorded using the same machines. It's baffling. I guess it comes down to difference in quality(?).

On a side note though... Camcorder Color Denoise removes the red streaks on it's default setting of 30 (out of 500). I was pleasantly surprised.

edit: forgot to mention that 2 of the 3 hockey tapes, and 2 of my Woodstock tapes got pinched/creased, so they roll, and the ES16 passes them through just fine as well.

[lordsmurf]

Give me a lossless sample clip of the bleeding James Brown. CCD is good, but proper realign can be better. Let's see.

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Give me a lossless sample clip of the bleeding James Brown. CCD is good, but proper realign can be better. Let's see.

Give me a week or so... I was planning on posting it once I finish capturing everything, then start to edit everything.

Cheers.

[bmichaelb]

BTW... here's the internals. Probably can't tell any difference from the ES15 though. I can't figure out how to remove the heatsink to reveal the chip ID. I was hoping to reapply the thermal paste.