Panasonic experiment, VHS to HD?

[jt_retro]

Hi Folks,

I'm doing some experiments and would love your opinions/input. I'm really doing this for my own entertainment/experimentation however in the end, it would be nice to have a good quality archive of my family VHS tapes.

I have the following equipment:

- Panasonic NV-HS930 S-VHS VCR with S-Video out and built-in TBC
- Datavideo TBC-1000
- Panasonic DMR-BWT700 BlueRay/DVD Recorder
- Elgato Camlink 4K USB HDMI Capture device

Please note that in both methods below, the connection between the VCR, the Datavideo and the DMR-BWT700 will be using S-Video

Method 1: VCR (with TBC enabled)->Datavideo->BWT700->Elgato->Laptop
Using this method, the blueray recorder is essential acting as a A/D convertor and I'd capture my video on the laptop at 1080p (or whatever the BWT700 outputs on its HDMI port) using a high bitrate codec. I'm not sure which one to use though.

My questions for this method are:
a) Will this achieve a capture that is as good as just using a normal USB AV capture device with virtualdub?
b) What are the pitfalls here?

Method 2: VCR (with TBC enabled)->Datavideo->BWT700 (Recording in XP mode) -> Burned to DVD

My questions for this method are:
a) How does this compare to Method 1?
b) How good is Panasonic's XP mode bitrate wise and how does it compare to using a good codec on a computer, given I'm capturing VHS tapes.

Your help and opinions are appreciated.

Thanks

[latreche34]

Both are mediocre methods, Best method is VCR(Line TBC) -> S-Video -> TBC1000 -> S-Video -> S-Video capture device into lossless AVI. Like Lodsmurf says capturing has a recipe, just follow it.

[jt_retro]

Thanks, I appreciate that the mentioned recipe might be the best way, but how do my methods compare, especially method one?

Im very keen to learn and understand why the ADC inside the Panasonic is inferior to a usb AV capture device.

Thanks

[latreche34]

In the first method you are capturing from HDMI and that elgato most likely is upscaling, de-interlacing and who knows what else its cheap microchip is doing to the analog video, In the second method you are capturing to a lossy format MPEG-2 and again who knows how good the MPEG-2 encoder of the Panasonic DVD recorder, We can't judge the book by its cover we need to see samples to be able to tell which method is better. But I know for sure the recipe mentioned in my post is the best method.

[jt_retro]

Where did you read that the elgato does all those things? I could be wrong, and I need to test this, but I'm under the impression that I get into the computer whatever resolution goes into the camlink.

Also, why are "s-video capture devices" (without knowing a model) less suspect than a HDMI capture device? Or are you referring to a specific device?

Thanks

[latreche34]

Because that's what Chinese devices do, they are not made for capturing noisy VHS signal, and also because capturing raw AVI at D1 standard resolution and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is better, The files obviously will be huge but a lossless compressor can be used to make small file sizes such HuffYUV, then from there you can edit, de-interlace, encode....etc. Kind of like scanning pictures using the raw BMP and edit or scan straight to compressed PNG. Again we don't know what your files look like, But the general rule is lossless capture is always the best when done right.

[jt_retro]

Elgato is a reputable brand - owned by Corsair. I am still not convinced that the elgato will do any modifications of the input digital signal, but if you've read that somewhere I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

IMO, The Panasonic Blue Ray recorder is potentially more likely to modify the signal some how, but I haven't heard any opinions on how that ADC stacks up to a USB Capture Device.

Thanks

[latreche34]

If you want to read the Elgato horror stories head over to videohelp.com.

[hodgey]

Panasonic's DVD-recorders had pretty good ADC, on most models it will even correct horizontal jitter very well (aka line-TBC). No idea what's in this one though. Panasonic tends to not list the individual components on the digital PCB where all the interesting stuff happens on their DVRs in the service manual.

The manual would suggest that this one will not output 480i/576i though, the output formats are either upscaled, deinterlaced or both so capturing from HDMI on this unit may not be ideal. Deinterlacing or scaling will irreversibly alter the video in some manner. If it happens to still include the video stabilizing/tbc-functionality I suppose you could always grab from the S-Video output if you have a need for that.

The older PAL DVD/HDD recorders with HDMI did support outputting 480i/576i without any noise reduction or other weirdness with good quality provided the HDMI capture device doesn't mess with it any further. The main drawback is the fact that they bright spots get clipped unless the video level of the input signal is lowered a lot (which is doable with external tools). I don't see it giving any advantage over a quality capture card for video that has been through a TBC though, in that case it's easier to use something where you have control over video levels.

[jt_retro]

Thanks Hodgey for your assessment!

Indeed, I was playing around with the HDMI output settings on the Panasonic and the 2 "closest" options I have are either 575p (deinterlaced) or 1080i (upscaled).

If you had to choose one of those, which would be the lesser of 2 evils? I don't really intend on doing any editing on the computer after capture, perhaps some very basic brightness or contrast adjustments at most.

As a side question, if I choose 1080i, how can I be sure that the Panasonic isn't deinterlacing and then reinterlacing real-time? Or is that just simply not a thing to worry about?

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

I have the following equipment:
- Panasonic NV-HS930 S-VHS VCR with S-Video out and built-in TBC
- Datavideo TBC-1000

Good.

Quote:

- Panasonic DMR-BWT700 BlueRay/DVD Recorder
- Elgato Camlink 4K USB HDMI Capture device

Not good, for this purpose.
- BD for BD.
- that's mostly a "gamer" capture card (record yourself playing video games)

Quote:

My questions for this method are:
a) How does this compare to Method 1?
b) How good is Panasonic's XP mode bitrate wise and how does it compare to using a good codec on a computer, given I'm capturing VHS tapes.

Punt/push. Both are equally bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

Where did you read that the elgato does all those things?

All of the usual video sites, plus others. The nickname "Elcrapo" is deserved.
Elgato cards barely perform better than Easycaps.

Quote:

Also, why are "s-video capture devices" (without knowing a model) less suspect than a HDMI capture device?

You need to match tech with tech. SD era, s-video. HD era, HDMI. You surely realize that HD content over s-video would look terrible, but the inverse is also true, VHS or HDMI is lousy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

The files obviously will be huge

The irony is that lossless SD is often near the same size as compressed HD, with the HD being worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

Elgato is a reputable brand

No.

Even Corsair has some reputation issues, understanding it's more than just a RAM company. Rarely does Corsair make the best anything anymore (not that I think it ever did, but many think it's fallen from highs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Panasonic's DVD-recorders had pretty good ADC,

It's not just ADC, but also encoder chipset. Likely another in-house chip. And Panasonic encoding has always sucked. The software, and the hardware. They simply cannot dev a quality encode chip.

Quote:

The older PAL DVD/HDD recorders with HDMI did support outputting 480i/576i without any noise reduction or other weirdness with good quality provided the HDMI capture device doesn't mess with it any further.

PAL only. I never saw an NTSC unit not screw something up.

Quote:

The main drawback is the fact that they bright spots get clipped unless the video level of the input signal is lowered a lot (which is doable with external tools).

Panasonic also has a long history, since the first DVD recorders, of messing with luma and IRE values. In addition to lousy encoding, Panasonic seems to hire color-blind people to calibrate and test the colorimetry of the units.

Quote:

I don't see it giving any advantage over a quality capture card for video that has been through a TBC though, in that case it's easier to use something where you have control over video levels.

Yep. Follow the recipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

If you had to choose one of those, which would be the lesser of 2 evils?

Without seeing exact samples, a coin flip would do.

Quote:

I don't really intend on doing any editing on the computer after capture, perhaps some very basic brightness or contrast adjustments at most.

I really don't see the point. The video will be butchered.

Quote:

As a side question, if I choose 1080i, how can I be sure that the Panasonic isn't deinterlacing and then reinterlacing real-time? Or is that just simply not a thing to worry about?

You have no control over that. Upscale requires deinterlace, then reinterlace. In theory, 1080i would be a really bad choice compared to any progressives.