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  #1  
10-27-2022, 12:28 PM
lightbulb1986 lightbulb1986 is offline
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Has anybody tested the Singmai SM03 and can they speak to its quality? I'm curious how the TBC/frame sync feature worked on this device.

I initially tried to revive an older thread on this topic but was prompted to start a new thread. I know a few users had expressed their intent to buy and provide a review about 6 months ago.

I don't know much about SDI. The SM03 outputs 10bit SDI, but the Magewell PCIe/USB capture cards that bundle with the SM03 capture YUV2 4:2:2 at 8bit (I think). Do the bundled Magewell cards hobble the SM03's output? I know 10bit is overkill for VHS anyway but I'm still curious. I have an Aja IO HD (great product) and I think I could pass the SM03 SDI output into the IO HD to capture 10bit uncompressed (and eliminate the need for a Magewell bundled card).

Any info would be appreciated--I'm thinking of biting the bullet and trying it out.

https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html


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File Type: pdf SM03 User Manual.pdf (6.62 MB, 4 downloads)
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  #2  
10-27-2022, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbulb1986 View Post
Has anybody tested the Singmai SM03 and can they speak to its quality? I'm curious how the TBC/frame sync feature worked on this device.

I initially tried to revive an older thread on this topic but was prompted to start a new thread. I know a few users had expressed their intent to buy and provide a review about 6 months ago.

I don't know much about SDI. The SM03 outputs 10bit SDI, but the Magewell PCIe/USB capture cards that bundle with the SM03 capture YUV2 4:2:2 at 8bit (I think). Do the bundled Magewell cards hobble the SM03's output? I know 10bit is overkill for VHS anyway but I'm still curious. I have an Aja IO HD (great product) and I think I could pass the SM03 SDI output into the IO HD to capture 10bit uncompressed (and eliminate the need for a Magewell bundled card).

Any info would be appreciated--I'm thinking of biting the bullet and trying it out.

https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html
From day one, I've had my reservations and doubts about this unit.

Too many people see "TBC!" and want to buy one, most of whom don't see or understand details and fine print. But I do, and what I see gives me pause, squint my eyes, tilt my head.

I'm not some all-knowing sage, but over and over again, I'm proven right. (And the few times I doubted myself, did it anyway, it was a mistake, lost time/money. I was correct all along, but wrongly gave into peer pressure anyway. That feeling sucks, being pissed at yourself.)

Lots of devices make promises, far fewer deliver. I'd bet money this is the latter.

The status quo remains fully unchanged. If you want a good TBC, get a good TBC. Not some "also has" devices that really has nothing, or at least nothing as you think it would/should/does.

Remember, the Singmai device is really just an SDI converter, and those have downsides and limitations. And if you want an SDI workflow (which isn't really suggested for consumer source like VHS, is closed-loop, etc), then there are several options already.

It's not a TBC, and based on the info in the user manual, does not contain the necessary chipset needed for true TBC whatsoever. A TBC is not a single chip on a board!


Sometimes "biting the bullet" is simply playing Russian roulette. Put down the weapon, think it through.

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  #3  
10-27-2022, 06:27 PM
lightbulb1986 lightbulb1986 is offline
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Thanks for the reply Smurf I appreciate it. I already have a TBC-1000 and it works great. My sense/first instinct is that a new product like the SM03 would offer at least SOME kind of advantages over my current kit that predates me in some cases. I’m hoping anybody who has tested the SM03 can speak to that. I mean, even if I keep the tbc-1000 in the chain and feed its output into the SM03–it could still convert that frame synched signal to SDI and (potentially) produce an image that is higher quality than other recommended capture gear?

Two more questions for you:
options for SDI—are there any you recommend for consumer VHS/Hi8? I’m more interested in removing the TBC-1000 from the workflow. Are there any SDI devices that meet that need?

Chipset—most interesting to me bc I have no idea here. What is the necessary chipset for TBC? And i assume the chipset in the TBC-1000 is an ASIC? The SM03 is FPGA—so wouldn’t a TBC function be programmed on it? This is what the manual says:

Quote:
The synchronizer a video frame size memory. Video is written to the memory from the video decoder which is locked to the video input. Video is read from the memory using a standard compliant sync source so the video is always accurate in its timing and has low jitter. This means that any errors in the timing of the input do not affect the output video. It is possible to adjust the horizontal and vertical timing of the output video so the video frame may be moved. This is done using the H Position and V Position controls from the synchronizer menu. The horizontal position is moved in 74ns increments (one pixel) over a range of ±31.5μs (±half a horizontal line). The vertical position may be moved ±100 lines.
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  #4  
10-27-2022, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbulb1986 View Post
TMy sense/first instinct is that a new product like the SM03 would offer at least SOME kind of advantages over my current kit that predates me in some cases.
Nothing in the SM03 appears to be new or unique, if not outright inferior.
What do you imagine would be different?

Quote:
even if I keep the tbc-1000 in the chain and feed its output into the SM03–it could still convert that frame synched signal to SDI and (potentially) produce an image that is higher quality than other recommended capture gear?
It's just an SDI converter. Those already exist.

Quote:
options for SDI—are there any you recommend for consumer VHS/Hi8?
No. VHS has signal and quality issues that exceed the design of these professional units, which were made for somewhat more stable BetacamSP and comparable. If the tapes are excellent it may be fine. If the tape has typical issues, not so much.

Quote:
I’m more interested in removing the TBC-1000 from the workflow. Are there any SDI devices that meet that need?
Not really. The TBC-1000 (and other DataVideo, Cypress, few others) was specifically design for frame sync of crappy consumer sources. SDI gear is not really tuned to expect crappy quality input. (You must understand that "crappy quality" is not necessarily visual, but includes invisible signal and non-visible visual errors. It's not just what you see on a TV.)

Quote:
Chipset—most interesting to me bc I have no idea here. What is the necessary chipset for TBC? And i assume the chipset in the TBC-1000 is an ASIC? The SM03 is FPGA—so wouldn’t a TBC function be programmed on it? This is what the manual says:
An FPGA is indeed a chip ... a single chip in a set of chips, aka chipset. But I know for fact that you can't just slap a random FPGA on a board, and declare it a finished product. It's incredibly more complicated than that. Nor does any current SD-enabled off-the-shelf chip have defaults that works well (or at all) ... which seems to be the case, especially due to the option to reprogram it.

Certain features, like NR, are already on-chip, and (as far as I can tell, based on what I know about TBCs, and these chips) it's nothing Singmai created, but rather just enabled (or didn't disable). This is why I'm not giddy like some folks have been. More impressive would have been actual chroma NR (cNR), not what exists there.

That brings up another point. There's nothing "modern" to be had, when the cNR attempt just mushes together, and makes "mouse trails" (blended chroma). This is a rough on-chip option going back 25+ years, and should just be avoided for actual removal methods now in software (and for at least a decade now).

It's a nifty SDI converter, few extra features, but not at all what some are thinking it is.

Most of this stuff was built into early BV10 units 15 years ago now.

You can probably expect subpar line correction (vs. in-VCR line TBCs, or ES10/15 type), mushy NR, non-fluid proc amp, potentially weaker frame sync. Of all those, I'd expect frame to be the only coin toss, 50/50 odds of being any degree of quality, but the rest are unlikely.

If you still want to get it, fine. But lower your expectations. It's not the second coming of the wheel, or of sliced bread. It's mostly just a re-engineered (or reverse engineered) product that has existed for decades. And we already know how that went in the early 2010s, giving us "black AVT-8710" type flawed units.

The Youtube example videos were wholly unimpressive, uninspiring.

I always shake my head when I read text like "video source such as VCR" (pages 11, 14). It makes you wonder how much they truly understand video, or formats.

I could go on, but that's enough. As already stated, I see things most people would miss, and it's not good. Be wiser, more discerning, don't be easily fooled.

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  #5  
10-27-2022, 11:34 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I have had several e-mail exchanges with Daniel the head of SingMai and he seem to know a lot about analog signal timing and VHS, While I haven't tried the SM03 personally due to its price and I already have similar devices from the late 2000's based on the SDI architecture, I gave him a suggestion about making it affordable for the masses but he never gave me a definitive answer if that will ever happen.

As I said I used similar devices and I posted samples over at VH comparing conventional capture to the S&W TBS800 and the difference is night and day, The first thing that stands out about such devices is the stability of the frame in terms of line timing, It is the most advanced line timing I've ever seen, even my JVC VCR line TBC could not perform that well, I wouldn't doubt a device made in the last two years such as the SM03 would perform more than the TBS800 given the amount of power the current processors have compared to 15-20 years ago.

I do agree with LS on the price, But if you factor in how much analog TBC's cost nowadays that should be a great deal, Even the SDI devices from 10 years ago go for over a grand.

If you do wish to proceed with a purchase please keep us posted with samples.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #6  
10-27-2022, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I wouldn't doubt a device made in the last two years such as the SM03 would perform more than the TBS800 given the amount of power the current processors have compared to 15-20 years ago.
Don't confuse these types of chips with x86 or ARM, or even ASIC or GPU. It's just not anywhere near the same leaps in performance. More advanced than yesterday, yes. But most are about size, heat, and energy use. With something like SD video signal processing, the excess speed is pure overhead, idle overkill. Speed wise, these things are measured in low triple-digit megahertz.

Quote:
But if you factor in how much analog TBC's cost nowadays that should be a great deal,
Yes, but the standard TBC has resale value, while a boutique SDI card will be so overly niche that resale is unlikely to impossible. There are some other video items that I never discuss, mostly because it's hard to locate, expensive when found, and something you'll stick it your closet when done. Rare is rare, valuable is valuable, and while those often intersect, it's not always so. When it comes to video capture/conversion tools, for use by non-pros, I do think "big picture".

Quote:
If you do wish to proceed with a purchase please keep us posted with samples.
Yep.

Or loan it to me for a deep test, PM me.

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  #7  
11-30-2022, 12:37 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Daniel from SingMai just sent me an e-mail with a link to a new video capture he's done with the SM03, The VCR is probably low end and despite being B&W and heavily compressed by YouTube it looks promising, I asked him for more tests.
https://youtu.be/C7sxn0FJOwk

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #8  
11-30-2022, 04:24 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Interesting. Thanks for the update!

A channel on S-VHS / VHS capture and AviSynth restoration https://bit.ly/3mHWbkN
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  #9  
11-30-2022, 06:42 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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You would have thought that somebody who has built a brand new TBC and is trying to flog it would be putting in more effort to promote it, not just pop a B&W on YT. I'd be bombarding people here with proper samples. Perhaps they're afraid of the scrutiny...

Quote:
The VCR is probably low end
True. "The VCR is a JVC HR-S9600 with the TBC turned off. ".
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  #10  
12-03-2022, 02:19 AM
SingMai SingMai is offline
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Quote:
It's just an SDI converter. Those already exist.
The SM03 is not just an SDI converter. SDI has a very precise jitter specification, so to convert any video other than near broadcast specification, to SDI, you have to retime it. So that is one function of the SM03, and it does this using a frame synchroniser. It isn't, in the true sense of the word, a TBC, as this will have velocity compensation, and we don't have access to those signals (some VCRs had a TBC output but VHS machines do not have this). But it accepts jittery video inputs and retimes them to provide a stable output (i.e. no tearing at the top of the video).

More than this, the SM03 provides broadcast quality decoding of NTSC and PAL using a 3D comb filter. Even in YC mode the comb filter operates to help remove artifacts from the image.

The SM03 provides luma and chroma noise reduction. This helps remove the tape noise from VHS tape sources and it does this without visible trails or contouring.

Lastly it provides chroma edge enhancement so improving vertical transitions, and it does this without overshoots.

All of the above design is proprietary and the design is run on a single FPGA. It does not use a chip set or any off-the-shelf decoder from ADI or Philips or whoever. All the design is unique to SingMai.

The SM03 was not originally designed for tape archiving or playback of analogue laserdiscs (that product is the now the SM10). Because of this we are working with two companies who are providing us with feedback so we can optimise the performance. Anyone who has already bought an SM03 gets a programmer so any improvements can be programmed into their SM03.

I have been working in video for over 40 years and our customers include companies such as Lockheed, NASA and General Dynamics. I was principal design engineer at Snell and Wilcox and also worked designing video decoders at Philips and LSI Logic.

If anyone wants to suggest video clips we can run through the SM03 I would be happy to do so. Also, if anyone buys the SM03 and feels it does not perform as they think it should we offer a full refund (less postage). Also, if anyone has any questions again I am happy to answer them.
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  #11  
12-03-2022, 08:12 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Well there you have it, This should clear some ambiguity.
Keep us updated with more tests on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #12  
12-03-2022, 11:16 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Thanks for the info, @SingMai. If I had the dosh I'd buy one. C'Mon Lordsmurf, go for it!
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  #13  
12-04-2022, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
Thanks for the info, @SingMai. If I had the dosh I'd buy one. C'Mon Lordsmurf, go for it!
As I wrote, as SingMai confirmed, not for videotapes.

If and when the happens, SingMai is welcome to contact me, send a product sample for extensive testing and review.

You must understand my perspective here. For at least 15 years now, I've been told that various random devices were "also TBCs" or "contained TBCs", or that a product "will do __ in the next revision". The first was never accurate, and the latter never happened. If all those TBC conversations to date were a baseball game, it'd be a no hitter. Hence extreme skepticism now, unwilling to waste more time and funds on promises that don't deliver.

But again, if and when.

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  #14  
12-04-2022, 07:31 AM
SingMai SingMai is offline
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Quote:
As I wrote, as SingMai confirmed, not for videotapes.
The SM03 is specifically designed for the archiving of video tapes and the archiving or viewing of other analogue sources.

Quote:
It needs to be built with longevity in mind
The SM03 comes with a 3 year guarantee. One of our products is installed in the International Space Station so they are reliable. The components we use are from premier franchised suppliers and are industrial temperature specification. Each unit is put through a 24 hour soak test before we despatch.

Quote:
Professional items have (in case of USA) FCC testing and compliance (EU has equivalents). Amateur gear has none of that.
We self-certify our equipment to the CE mark (EU equivalent to FCC). All of our equipment is tested using industry standard test equipment from Rhode and Schwarz, Tektronix or Phabrix.

Quote:
But it's not always the fault of the repairer/refurb'er, but the fault of the badly made item
All our products are supplied with schematics, but we also offer a repair service (which to date has never been required). We know of one of products that has been operating continuously for 8 years now without any issues.

I'm afraid we can't afford to send any more free units out. Two units are with two UK companies who are giving us feedback on its performance. Both companies archive thousands of tapes a day and have a variety of tape sources (including non-VHS).
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  #15  
12-04-2022, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingMai View Post
The SM03 comes with a 3 year guarantee.
Longevity is about construction, such as how it handles heat dissipation, or even heat generation to begin with, not warranties. Also components, such as ceramic caps, not cheap electrolytic caps.

Longevity is measured in decades, not years. Far too much gear has already failed us.

Quote:
I'm afraid we can't afford to send any more free units out.
It's a pity that it cannot be tested to vet the claims being made.

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  #16  
12-04-2022, 03:55 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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@SingMai
I think I see the misunderstanding here. First off, the price of the device is not really a concern compared to other similar devices of the era that were selling for over $1000 15 years ago, if you account for inflation that's almost double, So let's put price talk aside for now, Also quality is no doubt there compared to Chinese devices.

What Lordsmurf and other members are skeptical about is the performance of the device with a variety of consumer tapes including, VCR recorded tapes from TV and home videos recorded with budget camcorders, When they hear companies are doing samples it jumps to mind that those are professional archiving businesses, Those deal with mould and other tape problems, They don't deal with issues due to hardware quality or tracking errors due to a miss aligned camcorder or VCR, they don't deal with improper levels due to user error, they don't deal with Funai and RCA VCR's period.

While most of the hardcore hobbyists don't see 500 euros expensive, they just don't see the need for such a device because they have an arsenal of them, I personally at some point had 4 BE75, 2 S&W TBS800 and a bunch of other consumer devices, But the masses who are potential buyers for your device need to see experiments and samples from within forums like this, They simply don't trust companies doing testing for them, That's not to say that if you provide enough convincing samples online highlighting the issues that the average Joe faces with his mom and dad VCR, I'm pretty sure there is a number of them want such a device knowing that consumer TBC's are like $2000 now if you can find one.

Another issue, and I've already discussed it with you in previous e-mails is that people don't know what to do with an SDI port, If you tell them you need another device to connect to the computer they will see another expense and often they get confused about which one is the capture device the one next to the VCR or the one next to the computer, If you can find a way to put a USB or thunderbolt port or a port for an external storage device like a SSD that can save the uncompressed and uncropped 10/8bit 4:2:2 AVI that would be the device of the century.

I did ask you before for a free sample to test and was hoping that I can pass it along to LS, Jwillis and other senior members here and at videohelp before it finds its way back to you or one of them buys it, but for now I'm very busy with some family paperwork, After I'm done I will order one and do an extensive testing with consumer made medias such as VHS, V8, Beta, PCM VHS and PCB Beta.

Meanwhile feel free to send me over the cloud short lossless samples of tests to put them on my YouTube channel, I will do the proper de-interlacing and encoding so it wouldn't lose too much quality after YouTube processing.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #17  
12-07-2022, 02:25 AM
SingMai SingMai is offline
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I have added another video clip for the SM03: https://youtu.be/YNzOLW0kydI

Thank you for the feedback. I will add some information about SDI and capturing the video to the user manual - I will post a link when I have done that. I will also post more clips.
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  #18  
12-07-2022, 06:21 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Thanks for that; that You Tube bitrate is very very (too) low. The display Ratio is also 5:4; I think should be 4:3. I'd suggest uploading to YT at at least a 1440x1080 at 4:3.

Could you post up a Lagarith or HUFFYUV lossless file (max 99mb) on the forum.
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  #19  
12-07-2022, 10:34 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I noticed that there is more blanking space around the frame compared to other capture devices, What native resolution the ADC samples at and what is the output resolution if different than the sampling resolution? Ideally the device should not be doing any resizing at all.
In future tests try some LP home recorded tapes, SP commercial tapes are more robust than home made ones.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #20  
12-09-2022, 01:38 AM
SingMai SingMai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
In future tests try some LP home recorded tapes, SP commercial tapes are more robust than home made ones.
Thank you for the suggestion - I'll do the test this weekend.
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