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03-17-2023, 02:04 PM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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I am wondering what hardware I need to buy to digitize my vhs tapes. I digitized some with premier pro before but I would like to do what you guys recommend and do a better job on digitizing my vhs tapes. I used premier pro because I already had it because I edited for a movie review group on YouTube. Anyways my brother passed and my mom has a bunch of tapes with him on it. I am going to start with my old wrestling tapes, which were vhs c tapes, though before I get to the older regular vhs tapes that he is in because those ones mean more to me and I wanna get everything figured out before I get to those. Hereís what I have now.
1. I have a Panasonic 1980 vcr. I got it from eBay they said it worked. They shipped it very poorly then gave me a refund on everything and told me to keep it when I told them it didnít work. I then sent it to tgrantphoto.com and followed his shipping instructions and he did a bunch to it. He replaced parts recapped it it really works well now.
2. I have a black magic intensity shuttle which I bought because of someone on YouTube that I saw and now I am figuring out that that kind of is a capture device and not a card and maybe that and my knowledge are the weak links in the chain. I am totally open to getting rid of that if you guys think that is a good idea.
3. I have an Inspiron 5675 that I upgraded the ram to 32 gigs of ddr4 ram and added some solid state drives for when I was editing in premier pro so that I could assign the drives different task.
System model: inspiron 5675
Manufacturer: Dell
Processor: AMD Ryzen 7 1700x eight core processor, 3400 MHz, 8 cores, 16 logical processors
Ram: 32 gigs of ddr4
Drives: three solid state drives. Two regular solid state drives one 256 gb one 488 gb then a nvme solid state drive 119gb then my old disk drive that came with the computer.
4. I also have a sd tv if I need it. I used to hook one up and I would have the video going to the tv and to my editing software.

I am wondering if it is better to take everything into premier and do some color editing after capture and maybe sharpening or denoice maybe adjust the audio afterwards or do that stuff in the hardware on my vcr. I am wondering if my settings are right. I really appreciate the help with this. I am really wondering what frame TBC I should get.


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  #2  
03-17-2023, 03:09 PM
timtape timtape is offline
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Originally Posted by Gary34 View Post

...I am wondering if it is better to take everything into premier and do some color editing after capture and maybe sharpening or denoice maybe adjust the audio afterwards or do that stuff in the hardware on my vcr. I am wondering if my settings are right.
My general rule is the capturing of the tape data is the most important step as everything after the capture depends on it. So poor tracking of picture and sound generally can't be fixed in post as the data was lost. In post we can filter some undesirable things out but we can't put back what was lost at step 1. The importance of capture tends to be underrated.
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  #3  
03-18-2023, 01:32 AM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Your rule is right. Tracking really can’t be fixed on post at all though. I was wondering it about sharpening specifically because you have options to fix it in post of in capture. I hear if can cause halos if it’s done on the vcr and that it’s better to do it in post. I found a thread where lordsmurf explains this topic and I don’t have questions about that anymore. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-playback.html. My main question is about hardware recommendations and I’m thinking now I probably shouldn’t have posted it in the general category of the forum. Anyways thanks for the input.
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  #4  
03-24-2023, 11:47 AM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
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> black magic intensity shuttle

You might use it, since you already have it, but don't expect it to play nice if your signal is not perfect, specially that you are not using a frame TBC with it. It is not the greatest capture card, see other posts in the forum for more details about its flaws.
Just get yourself a Hauppauge USB live2 like everyone, and/or a gv-usb2, play with them, mess with settings, see when you are happy, post samples here, etc . You can also buy a card from the marketplace of this forum.

Use these with VirtualDub, or amarecTV for capturing. Use a lossless codec, like UT video, or lagarith. Then do post-processing later.

I understand you are proud of your beast PC, but sorry, those muscles won't matter for capture and they are irrelevant. For editing post-capture, they will surely come in handy tho.

Capturing is happy with minimal specs 2-4 cores, on some 2013 I5. For best results, you boot from a drive, and you capture on a different drive, not the same one used for the OS. Boot from an SSD, but get use an old school HDD for capture.

Try to avoid windows 10, and use windows 7 if possible, you seem to have several Hard drives, so you probably can fit in an extra OS. or at least, turn off the internet during capture if you insist on using win10.


Regarding post-processing, now you can use that premier pro you mentioned, or IMHO, try to learn Avisynth/vapoursynth.
Post processing is a whole different world and can be subjective, and it is up to you to see how much correction/post-processing you want/need.
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  #5  
03-25-2023, 12:14 AM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Frame TBCs are getting hard to find. Would recommend buying one from the marketplace here.

Avoid eBay, Craigslist, etc.

lordsmurf has a list of recommended TBCs. What is your budget?
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  #6  
03-25-2023, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
lordsmurf has a list of recommended TBCs.
And sometimes I have some available in the marketplace. Sometimes.

Quote:
What is your budget?
You always have to be careful asking this question, because the would-be buyer doesn't have a frame of reference, outside of the cost of a DVD player. It really is like asking a child what a car costs. 99%+ of kids have zero idea, and you get random numbers, both hilarious high and low, never close to accurate. The same happens with adults and niche items.

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04-05-2023, 09:25 AM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Quote:
> black magic intensity shuttle

You might use it, since you already have it, but don't expect it to play nice if your signal is not perfect, specially that you are not using a frame TBC with it. It is not the greatest capture card, see other posts in the forum for more details about its flaws.
Just get yourself a Hauppauge USB live2 like everyone, and/or a gv-usb2, play with them, mess with settings, see when you are happy, post samples here, etc . You can also buy a card from the marketplace of this forum.
Blackmagic intensity shuttle

From what I can see the shuttle captures in the device. Analog was an afterthought. It drops a lot of frames and doesnít report them. When I used it I had audio drift. One of the videos I uploaded was an hour and the drift was bad. It limits the software I can use so Iím getting rid of it. Someone weíll want it on eBay it has its purpose this just isnít it.

I am fine with running windows 7 or vista or w/e on one of those drives and using it as my OS while capturing. Is windows 7 the best option?

Quote:
Frame TBCs are getting hard to find. Would recommend buying one from the marketplace here.

Avoid eBay, Craigslist, etc.

lordsmurf has a list of recommended TBCs. What is your budget?
I am thinking about getting an es15. I realize it isnít a real frame TBC but I need a vcr to rewind in anyways so I donít have to in my panny. It just seems like a good option for me. Iím gonna get one with the original remote because of the settings. The TBCs he sells sound great though. He services them and tests them and obviously knows what to look for. If I wanted a frame TBC and could get it without my wife really flipping out. Totally the best option is to get it from him. I was lucky to get my money back on the Panasonic 1980 I got off eBay. That seller was a good guy and refunded me but he just didnít know how to ship the vcr properly. It still turned on when I got it. It just wasnít taking tapes. Most sellers are not going to refund like that guy Iím sure. EBay is a gamble. Especially when dealing with these kinds of items.

Quote:
You always have to be careful asking this question, because the would-be buyer doesn't have a frame of reference, outside of the cost of a DVD player. It really is like asking a child what a car costs. 99%+ of kids have zero idea, and you get random numbers, both hilarious high and low, never close to accurate. The same happens with adults and niche items.
Lol that is really true. Kinda funny comparison. The capture card prices are not too much. I am going to get a capture card from you at some point. Iíll pm you when Iím ready to I saw you have some on marketplace right now.
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  #8  
04-05-2023, 10:52 AM
Xhumeka Xhumeka is offline
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I am thinking about getting an es15. I realize it isnít a real frame TBC but I need a vcr to rewind in anyways so I donít have to in my panny. It just seems like a good option for me.
Just a heads-up that the ES15 is a DVD Recorder, not a VCR. You won't be able to rewind tapes with it.
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  #9  
04-05-2023, 11:30 AM
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Just a heads-up that the ES15 is a DVD Recorder, not a VCR. You won't be able to rewind tapes with it.
Correct, not a VCR.

There is a combo unit that exists, but there's a catch. The quality of the passthrough degrades after the ES10. Prior to ES10, it did not exist, neither passthrough, nor any form of TBC. After the ES10, you had the slightly weaker ES15, then a few successively weaker models. The any sort of TBC(ish) function ceased to exist, like in the pre-ES10 era.

These were DVD recorders, not TBCs. Not the same whatsoever. You get all the negative affects of those units. The main reason the ES10/15 is/was popular is due to anti-tearing. Using these as a "TBC replacement" is a somewhat half-baked idea. Sort of like driving around on a donut spare. The overall performance of the car sucks, bad mileage, more wear on alignment/suspension/etc. It's a crutch method, short-term needs only (ie, for tearing tapes, not all tapes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34 View Post
Blackmagic intensity shuttle
From what I can see the shuttle captures in the device. Analog was an afterthought. It drops a lot of frames and doesn’t report them. When I used it I had audio drift. One of the videos I uploaded was an hour and the drift was bad. It limits the software I can use so I’m getting rid of it. Someone we’ll want it on eBay it has its purpose this just isn’t it.
Correct. BM cards are fine at HD, as designed. A total POS for SD, arguably even the cleaner pro sources that were the intended afterthought. The consumer sources (chaos on mylar) never had a chance.

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I am fine with running windows 7 or vista or w/e on one of those drives and using it as my OS while capturing. Is windows 7 the best option?
Depends on card. Overall, WinXP/7 best, Vista/8/10 have some narrow paths.

Win11 is simply too untested right now, and much like early Win10 is destined to break stuff, as Microsoft no longer cares about legacy hardware use (thus I don't care about them, I'm not geeking out on ChatGPT, or the next shiny whatever that doesn't yet matter; I have tasks to do).

I am thinking about getting an es15. I realize it isn’t a real frame TBC but I need a vcr to rewind in anyways so I don’t have to in my panny. It just seems like a good option for me. I’m gonna get one with the original remote because of the settings. The TBCs he sells sound great though. He services them and tests them and obviously knows what to look for. If I wanted a frame TBC and could get it without my wife really flipping out. Totally the best option is to get it from him.

Quote:
I was lucky to get my money back on the Panasonic 1980 I got off eBay. That seller was a good guy and refunded me but he just didn’t know how to ship the vcr properly. It still turned on when I got it. It just wasn’t taking tapes. Most sellers are not going to refund like that guy I’m sure. EBay is a gamble. Especially when dealing with these kinds of items.
Nope, they will not.

Story time...

I have a deck here, and need a certain part to make it whole. Since my contacts are dry right now, I decided to dumpster dive on eBay. I found a decent parts/repair deck for "only" $250, and the description lists that aspect of the unit functions (thus the part must function). It was shipping decently (still not great). Nothing on it works. In fact, this is literally the worst copy of this exact unit that I've ever seen. It is so screwed up that even I'm at a loss. The seller is fighting me on a return, trying to hide behind "as is", "no refunds", and "for parts", additionally accusing me of "messing it up" because "I clearly don't know what I have here". The dumb SOB has no idea who I am, and he clearly does not know much about these decks based on his own writing and ramblings. He offered me a "generous refund" (his words) of less than what it cost to ship it. He won't win this case. But it will drag on for more weeks. There's always the chance eBay could side with him (though my CC will not), it's almost a nil chance. I still don't have my part, and I have yet another task to mess with.

eBay has a caste system, unknown to most. Upper caste get perks, such as more 1-on-1 support lines. As a low-caste standard member, you can easily get screwed over on disputes, as you're not able to fully explain situations.

Quote:
Lol that is really true. Kinda funny comparison. The capture card prices are not too much. I am going to get a capture card from you at some point. I’ll pm you when I’m ready to I saw you have some on marketplace right now.
To further that analogy, ES10/15 is really a very minimalist item. It's sort of like giving a kid a peanut butter sandwich for lunch, with a bag of his/her favorite chips. That's fine in a time crunch, or a one-off situation. But you can't give that to the kid daily, it's crap. Yes, yes, PB is good, but not daily, vastly lacks nutrition.

There are better items than the ES10/15. The ES10/15 is merely one of the "also has TBC" type units that exists. Now, most of the "also has" units do not have the TBC for you, but rather for the internal function of the unit. Any such usage is consequential, not intended. The ES10/15 was intended, but has consequences. This really all depends on the sources, the workflow, the longer term intention of the project. As an example, anybody wanting to convert SD to HD, with ES10/15 used on ingest, will have ghastly artifact-filled results.

So there is a batch of gear between cheap ES10/15, and more costly "actual" TBCs. But because it is so conditional on scenario, I don't often discuss those in public (because some idiot would run to eBay, buy it, be wholly disappointed, and blame me for "bad advice" that I never gave). That means anybody seeking better than ES10/15, when budget for actual TBC simply cannot happen, then they need to PM/email me. Another monkey wrench is the models have versions and revisions, not stated on the unit, which can vastly change performance of the "also has" units.

And noting that many "also has" units are bad, not just potential wrong choice in a scenario.

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  #10  
04-05-2023, 12:19 PM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Thanks for the response. I get what you are saying there are things I wouldnít have to worry about with a tbc that I have to worry about with an es10. I am going to really look into it before I purchase anything. When I purchased the shuttle I would have had a lot less of a headache if I would have looked into it more and not tried to use it and premier pro. It was like two hundred bucks too and basically useless. I wonder how much I need a frame tbc since Iím dealing with vhs-c tapes that are in really good shape. I could try it without a frame tbc then it would be pretty obvious what I need. Okay Iím not gonna get the es-15 or 10. I just gonna worry about a card then see how everything works and go from there. I donít wanna get something then wish I hadnít again. I know I need a new capture card though.

Quote:
Story time...

I have a deck here, and need a certain part to make it whole. Since my contacts are dry right now, I decided to dumpster dive on eBay. I found a decent parts/repair deck for "only" $250, and the description lists that aspect of the unit functions (thus the part must function). It was shipping decently (still not great). Nothing on it works. In fact, this is literally the worst copy of this exact unit that I've ever seen. It is so screwed up that even I'm at a loss. The seller is fighting me on a return, trying to hide behind "as is", "no refunds", and "for parts", additionally accusing me of "messing it up" because "I clearly don't know what I have here". The dumb SOB has no idea who I am, and he clearly does not know much about these decks based on his own writing and ramblings. He offered me a "generous refund" (his words) of less than what it cost to ship it. He won't win this case. But it will drag on for more weeks. There's always the chance eBay could side with him (though my CC will not), it's almost a nil chance. I still don't have my part, and I have yet another task to mess with
He picked the wrong person for that one. Youíre the most quoted well known person in vhs transfer. I would assume that people buying stuff like that for parts would know what theyíre buying and know about the product. Crazy for him to say you didnít know what you were buying.
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  #11  
04-05-2023, 02:22 PM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
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@Gary34

I use Windows 7 even though my capture cards all work on 10 (and 11?), mainly because virtualDub works much better on 7 and mainly because it has less background tasks that may interrupt my captures. My windows 7 has never been connected to the internet, and it should remain that way. 7 is good, but depending on your card you may be forced to downgrade to XP.

As for your rewinding issue, "tape rewinders" do exist, they are standalone devices, small, sometimes look cute, like a car or some other shape and they get the Job done without harming your VCR. Some more expensive models had rewind/forward. Check ebay for VHS tape rewinders.
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  #12  
04-05-2023, 02:35 PM
Sunk Sunk is online now
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Originally Posted by mbassiouny View Post
As for your rewinding issue, "tape rewinders" do exist, they are standalone devices, small, sometimes look cute, like a car or some other shape and they get the Job done without harming your VCR. Some more expensive models had rewind/forward. Check ebay for VHS tape rewinders.
From what I've heard, those tape rewinders, on the contrary, may do more harm to your tapes than good. My advice is to find a cheap "guinea pig" VCR you could use to rewind and fast forward tapes, while reserving your main deck strictly for capture. I use my old LG player from 2003 to do REW and FF.
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  #13  
04-05-2023, 02:37 PM
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It was like two hundred bucks too and basically useless.
Resell.

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I wonder how much I need a frame tbc since I’m dealing with vhs-c tapes that are in really good shape.
Some form of TBC is required, not optional.

The ES10/15 gives line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, which still chokes on bad sources. VHS-C is an irritating sub-format, the thin and small tapes had lots of slop during recording, and it tends to give problems. No just the "eat" risk from using not-suggested VCRs, but signal/quality issues even during playback. Si you can attempt to skip line, but it may not end well. You've already faced one disappointment, it's really setup for another. Part of this does depend on the VCR/camera in use, exact models and features.

Quote:
I could try it without a frame tbc then it would be pretty obvious what I need. Okay I’m not gonna get the es-15 or 10. I just gonna worry about a card then see how everything works and go from there. I don’t wanna get something then wish I hadn’t again. I know I need a new capture card though.
Definitely a new card, and certain models act better with certain sources that others. But still, some sort of TBC is required. At minimum, that ES10/15, if cheap is the goal.

An aspect you're overlooking is that errors can be missed in a tiny preview window, and footage not actually being "watched" (just sort of monitored; post-capture detailed scrub somewhat mitigates sparse monitoring, which is what I do). But the point is that you can overlook non-glaring issues, but those become obvious after capture, when actually watched, especially on non-tiny monitors or TVs.

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I would assume that people buying stuff like that for parts would know what they’re buying and know about the product. Crazy for him to say you didn’t know what you were buying.
I didn't even think of that. But what I've run into is the normal piss-poor attitude by recyclers. It's amusing to see such a person accuse of "not knowing", when in fact his own writings easily reveal a total lack of knowledge, to the extent where I doubt he could set the clock on the unit.

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04-05-2023, 04:07 PM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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From what I've heard, those tape rewinders, on the contrary, may do more harm to your tapes than good. My advice is to find a cheap "guinea pig" VCR you could use to rewind and fast forward tapes, while reserving your main deck strictly for capture. I use my old LG player from 2003 to do REW and FF.
You’re right. I read that after I had ordered it. It’s still in the cellophane. The guy collected richard petty stuff and I left it still in the cellophane and in the box he sent it in. I’ll resell it. It was only 10 dollars anyways so ow well. It’s probably not a good reason to chose my frame tbc based on needing something to rewind tapes.
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04-05-2023, 06:12 PM
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From what I've heard, those tape rewinders, on the contrary, may do more harm to your tapes than good. My advice is to find a cheap "guinea pig" VCR you could use to rewind and fast forward tapes, while reserving your main deck strictly for capture. I use my old LG player from 2003 to do REW and FF.
The issue is two-fold.

VCRs extract the tape across the heads and mechanisms. This causes potential for tape damage.

Rewinders keep the tape inside, but good unreasonable fast.

Some VCRs go too fast as well.
Some VCRs retract for faster wind.

Some rewinders go slow and steady.

Mixed bag. Be careful. Don't go too fast, don't use a dirty/damaged deck. Regardless if rewinder or VCR.

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04-06-2023, 12:28 PM
Gary34 Gary34 is offline
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Some form of TBC is required, not optional.

The ES10/15 gives line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, which still chokes on bad sources. VHS-C is an irritating sub-format, the thin and small tapes had lots of slop during recording, and it tends to give problems. No just the "eat" risk from using not-suggested VCRs, but signal/quality issues even during playback. Si you can attempt to skip line, but it may not end well. You've already faced one disappointment, it's really setup for another. Part of this does depend on the VCR/camera in use, exact models and features.
I have the full field TBC in my Panasonic 1980 vcr. I was trying to skip having a frame TBC by using the es-10 but this is just an idea I got the other day on a Facebook group by someone that might of not known a bunch about all of this. I see that it Can have posterization, mouse trails and other things. I am not going to have a reference if I don’t own a real frame tbc and that stuff would be tough to see on the preview window. I see what your saying stuff goes smoother with good gear. I have no point of reference so I might think something is good because I haven’t seen how it’s supposed to be.
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