MiniDV transfer quality issues?

[Closecall]

Hello Everyone,

I am working on transferring some MiniDv tapes.
I have a Sony DCR-HC52 Camcorder and also a JVC SR-VS20U DV Super VHS Player (that has a MiniDV player) that I have been using for transfer.
I have attempted to capture in both DV and Analog formats to determine the best outcome for each tape as some have had very bad quality issues both in video and audio.
I use WinDv to transfer digitally via firewire in the LinksTek PCIE-1394A card, and Virtual Dub 1.9.1.1 to capture via S-video and also for converting digital files to Huffyuv.

The issues I have been having are audio loss, skipping and video that looks like vertical sync issues that mostly occur during camera movements.

I have both video clips here:
Digital Recording: https://vimeo.com/816327829

Analog Recording: https://vimeo.com/816327806

There is a scene change a good ways into the tape and once that happens the video and audio seem to be much better. I am wondering if this is a tape issue that is just going to end up being pick the best result and use it or if there is something more I can do.

Thank you

[latreche34]

Digital tapes are better transfered in digital, You are just creating a rabbit hole for yourself trying to capture them via analog output. Use Sclive and firewire and make sure no processes are running in the background disturbing the hard drive, The files should be DV not mp4.

[Hushpower]

The digital audio is better and the analogue video is better. I assume you have tried all combinations - DV transfer with your camera and the JVC and analogue capture with both.

If this is only an isolated case, I'd put the digital audio onto the analogue video.

You may do better with a better digitiser for the analogue workflow but it depends on the cost-benefit analysis. Analogue capturing of DV does work, as you have shown.

You could even try recording the audio from the camera's speaker if it plays well on the viewfinder and use it.

BTW, you've encoded those MP4s at 3:2 ratio (1.5:1). They look like they should be 4:3 (1.333:1) ie not quite as stretched.

[latreche34]

Record audio from the camera speaker? Are serious? I hope it's a joke.

[Hushpower]

Better than nothing at all, or the audio on the DV file.

[latreche34]

Why nothing? The same audio going to the speaker is going to the firewire port, he just needs to figure out where the data bottleneck is.

[Closecall]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Digital tapes are better transfered in digital, You are just creating a rabbit hole for yourself trying to capture them via analog output. Use Sclive and firewire and make sure no processes are running in the background disturbing the hard drive, The files should be DV not mp4.

Thank you for your input.
I agree that for MiniDV the direct digital transfer method via firewire is best, but also through my own testing, the analog method can sometimes benefit a stubborn/bad tape. I test the analog method using the JVC SR-VS20U deck with TBC ON and then also with TBC OFF and Video Stabilizer ON which in some cases produces different results. But I think I’m working with a very stubborn tape.

I was unsure if Vimeo would play the DV file so I converted it for internet use. The video looks identical online as it does as a DV on my machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hushpower

The digital audio is better and the analogue video is better. I assume you have tried all combinations - DV transfer with your camera and the JVC and analogue capture with both.

If this is only an isolated case, I'd put the digital audio onto the analogue video.

You may do better with a better digitiser for the analogue workflow but it depends on the cost-benefit analysis. Analogue capturing of DV does work, as you have shown.

You could even try recording the audio from the camera's speaker if it plays well on the viewfinder and use it.

BTW, you've encoded those MP4s at 3:2 ratio (1.5:1). They look like they should be 4:3 (1.333:1) ie not quite as stretched.

Thank you for your input.
Yes, I have tried all combinations. I have come across 8 MiniDV tapes with similar issues. I have copied 12 MiniDV tapes using both digital and analog methods with little to no issues. The tapes have been stored in a closet most of the time.

My Windows XP machine was built solely dedicated to transferring and is not running any other program in the background except for the capturing/copying software / analog = VirtualDub / digital = WinDV.

I am wondering if purchasing another MiniDV camcorder that is known to be excellent at playing back multiple brand tapes will have better results? The tapes I have are from Sony, TDK, JVC, and Fujifilm. Fujifilm is having the current issue.

I have researched some other camcorder models:
Canon ZR 900 model that is only Firewire
Canon ZR70 MC model that is Firewire AND S-Video
Panasonic PV-GS35 model that is Firewire AND S-Video

I lean towards the models having both Firewire and S-Video so I can run them through my digital AND analog workflow. – But the question is, will a different camcorder produce any better results on a stubborn/bad tape?

Also the videos were uploaded as 720x480 resolution videos 4:3. Could vimeo have changed the video?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[latreche34]

There is no stubborn DV tape over firewire only, I've said this numerous times, the analog method is usefull only if the firewire is broken or the computer is not equiped with one, Bad DV/D8 tapes exibit the same behavior over firewire or analog out alike becuase the signal comes from the same source. In your situation you clearly have data stream problem, So you either get a chopped up DV stream or analog video with audio delay, and both have the same cause. You have to address the root cause of the problem not trying to rechape the problem from one form into another.

[Hushpower]

Quote:

Bad DV/D8 tapes exibit the same behavior over firewire or analog out alike becuase the signal comes from the same source.

Clearly, that is not the case here. The analogue video is far better, stability-wise, than the digital version (the actual image isn't as nice). Conversely, the DV audio is better than the analogue.

I have done some tests with my TRV-110 and the analogue S-video capture is so close to the DV transfer it is very hard to tell the difference.

Quote:

I lean towards the models having both Firewire and S-Video so I can run them through my digital AND analog workflow. – But the question is, will a different camcorder produce any better results on a stubborn/bad tape?

The 64k question! It depends on how valuable those 8 tapes are to you verses the cost of another camera (or perhaps getting a conversion service to do it for you; not as much fun in that though!).

Quote:

Also the videos were uploaded as 720x480 resolution videos 4:3. Could vimeo have changed the video?

I just uploaded a similar file and it is displaying correctly at 4:3. Yours looks like there's no specific Display Aspect Ratio coded into it, so Vimeo is just using the dimensions (720:480 is 3:2 or 1.5:1, which is what your file is showing up as in Vimeo). If you're interested, you could install MediaInfo and open your video file in View>Text. That'll tell you everything about your file including the DAR, which, I understand, is the number Vimeo (and other players) will use to display the video.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hushpower

Clearly, that is not the case here. The analogue video is far better, stability-wise, than the digital version (the actual image isn't as nice). Conversely, the DV audio is better than the analogue.

I've seen this before, too many times. It happens.

Quote:

I have done some tests with my TRV-110 and the analogue S-video capture is so close to the DV transfer it is very hard to tell the difference.

Yep. Consumer optics were laughably crappy compared to actual quality optics. The DV palette may be 720x480/576, but the actual optical resolve sure was not. That is why digital transfer vs. analog capture can often be negligible. I've ever seen cases when the DV transfer gave pixel/"detail" noise that was not seen in the analog output.

Quote:

The 64k question! It depends on how valuable those 8 tapes are to you verses the cost of another camera (or perhaps getting a conversion service to do it for you; not as much fun in that though!).

Just remember, don't use a random service. You'll get back random quality. Or worse, they'll find a way to screw up the tapes, so you definitely never get the video/audio off them.

[Closecall]

I appreciate all of the responses and the information from everyone.

I currently want to fix the issue myself and would like to know the best steps to take moving forward with this tape.

[lordsmurf]

I've admittedly skimmed the thread, but isn't it a simple case of capture twice, merge assets?

[Hushpower]

Quote:

I currently want to fix the issue myself and would like to know the best steps to take moving forward with this tape.

In that case, IMO the only step to take is get another camera. Your plan for one with analogue video out, preferably S-video, is a good one.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hushpower

Clearly, that is not the case here. The analogue video is far better, stability-wise, than the digital version (the actual image isn't as nice). Conversely, the DV audio is better than the analogue.

I never said that's the case, the OP did. I said his tapes are fine, he has a data stream problem somewhere, Hard drive busy, CPU maxed out, I don't know.

[Closecall]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I've admittedly skimmed the thread, but isn't it a simple case of capture twice, merge assets?

Would this be the step you would take in this situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I never said that's the case, the OP did. I said his tapes are fine, he has a data stream problem somewhere, Hard drive busy, CPU maxed out, I don't know.

I can say with certainty that it is not the PC itself, as it is a newly built dedicated machine that only has Windows XP, Virtual Dub, and WinDv installed on it.

The tape is having the same issues even when just played off of the camcorder alone or the JVC player without transfer. To me that indicates a possible tape issue and/or in combination with the players I currently have available. Other MiniDV tapes play just fine thru the same players so I think I can rule out dirty or misaligned heads.

My conclusion at this time is to acquire a different camcorder and see how it plays.

All of your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[latreche34]

How does the tape play via the viewfinder? If it plays without skipping that rules out the tape entirely. Eventhough the difference in playback between analog and firewire already ruled out the tape being the culprint, lets do this one more step. Just post a short clip from the viewfinder using your phone.

[Closecall]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

How does the tape play via the viewfinder? If it plays without skipping that rules out the tape entirely. Eventhough the difference in playback between analog and firewire already ruled out the tape being the culprint, lets do this one more step. Just post a short clip from the viewfinder using your phone.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/817077904

I did mention in my post prior that "The tape is having the same issues even when just played off of the camcorder alone or the JVC player without transfer."
Now you can see though (sorry the audio is quiet) that the video is still having the issues there and the audio is skipping a bit as well.

[latreche34]

Okay examining the previous two samples thouroughly I can see the digital drop outs now, The problem was that you didn't post identical clips so I assumed that the digital one has skipping the analog one doesn't, I would have had a different opinion if the samples were identical in position and length. But seeing it again numerous times here is my findings:

Obviously the digital version is better in terms of picture quality, levels and so on. Corrupted frames were dropped in the analog version by the analog capture card that's why you don't see them. Audio is cutting out in both the analog and digital versions.

Problematic tapes like this would benifit from more advanced tools such as DV-rescue from the project MIPOPS, Check them out and see if you are able to use their automated software, It basically does several passes for the same tape and take good pixels from each pass and reconstruct the frames in an effort to eliminate or reduce the dropouts. This works via firewire only because the software needs to control the tape transport automatically, It also addresses problems shown in the attached illustration:

[Closecall]

My apologies. I should have been more specific and I am sorry my videos and responses confused you.
I greatly appreciate the responses and suggestions you have put forth and I will definitely give DV rescue a try!

[Closecall]

Are there specific or general settings that should be known for using Scenalyzer?
Been using mainly WinDV and want to give Scenalyzer a try.