Recommended VHS player, capture devices, cleaning tapes?

[GordonShock]

Hello,

I will soon have a load of VHS tapes coming my way, and given the price of conversion in my area, I decided to purchase the equipment and do it myself.

I've been editing for 20 years, starting in the gold old days of Mini-DV, so I am quite knowledgeable about things related to post-production, but lost track of the equipment specs a long time ago since we shifted to digital recording.

I am not interested in cheap Chinese knockoffs, but I can't spend $1200 on a player either. I'm also reticent to buy on Amazon, as sellers may or may not be fully aware of the equipment they sell there. Aside from eBay, any recommendations for reputable North American-based online shops?

That being said, what are good models out there in the $200-$700 price range, assuming the seller claims the unit is in great/very good condition? Are any specs worth taking into consideration besides the obvious? Perhaps like HI-FI capabilities, S-VHS port, etc.

As well, I understand now there are a great many RCA/USB adaptors available, but are they any good, or would you recommend another type of capture means altogether?

Finally, purchasing cleaning tapes would probably be in order. Do they all do the job well, or are there units that are far better than others?

My main goal, capture-wise, is to have a passthrough really. I do not want any type of modifications done during capture. The original frame rate, aspect ratio, and field order should be preserved. I'd rather output in ProRes, and work from that file, but I will most likely capture through Vegas, so perhaps this is a moot point.

Really appreciate your time and consideration.

P.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

I am not interested in cheap Chinese knockoffs, but I can't spend $1200 on a player either. I'm also reticent to buy on Amazon, as sellers may or may not be fully aware of the equipment they sell there. Aside from eBay, any recommendations for reputable North American-based online shops?

- When it comes to video gear, eBay is notorious for cheap junk, idiot/liar sellers ("tested" and "working" is almost always nonsense)
- AV gear from reputable sellers has a fair price, especially since most gear now needs refurb attention. (FYI, many eBay sellers now call their items "refurbished. but it's just BS.)

So ... you want reputable quality gear, but with eBay/China prices? If so, does not compute.

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As well, I understand now there are a great many RCA/USB adaptors available, but are they any good, or would you recommend another type of capture means altogether?

"RCA" is composite. No. Just no.
USB is fine. USB is just a comms method, no different from PCIe, Thunderbolt, or others. The comm methods doesn't determine device quality. Yes, most USB devices are crap, but it's not because of being USB.

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Finally, purchasing cleaning tapes would probably be in order. Do they all do the job well, or are there units that are far better than others?

No.
"Cleaning tapes" just push dirt/grime around, not actually clean (lift and remove) the dirt/grime.

NEVER USE Q-TIPS! Cotton ruins VCR heads. Use the "copy paper" method, closed-cell foam, or dSLR sensor swabs, with 91%+ isopropyl alcohol.

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My main goal, capture-wise, is to have a passthrough really. I do not want any type of modifications done during capture.

Some people wrongly think "passthrough" means to allow the VCR to destroy your quality, thus the false notion of a "VHS look" due to garbage playback. VHS can actually be extremely good. All that is required to correct the image, and correct the signal, thus ensuring quality capture, is to properly have TBCs in use.

No filtering should ever be done during capture. At most, analog items like proc amps, or detailers, but not required. The idea is the capture as clean a signal as possible, not something molested, made lossy, by junk gear in use. No old VCRs from the bottom of a close or thrift store, no Chinese capture dongles, no lack of TBCs.

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The original frame rate, aspect ratio, and field order should be preserved.

Yes, do this.

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I'd rather output in ProRes, and work from that file,

Mac has almost zero capture options, especially now in the M era.

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but I will most likely capture through Vegas, so perhaps this is a moot point.

NLEs have too much overhead, and always create issues like dropped frames. Never capture in an NLE. It's an editor, use it just for editing.

[GordonShock]

Thank you for the answers

Cleaning: Got it, DSLR swab with 91%+ isopropyl alcohol.

Capturing: You're right, I won't use Vegas, but use VDub and record it in uncompressed 10-bit Huffyuv. I'm on Win10 now, but will soon be done with the complete overhaul of my computer, and can install a Win7 partition on it if that helps.

*****

Here's my situation. My gig will soon have me purchase tapes for movies of the "Gentlemen" variety, tapes that probably changed hands a great many times. I will purchase them from niche marketplaces where sellers have a reputation to uphold. Be that as it may, even if they say "good condition", that may doesn't mean much as I don't know which equipment they used for playback, and they perhaps watched only the first 5 minutes to come to the "good condition" verdict, even though half way through the quality takes a dive as the tape may have been damaged.

I'm launching a business that will incur a great many expenses, but there are listings out there that may not come back, and purchasing them now without the ability for playback means I cannot get a refund if the tape is indeed of poor quality.

The VCR buying guide has a list of JVC models that are non-TBC. What if I purchase one of those so at least I can do playback, do tests, and replace it with a TBC-capable unit down the road? If it turns out that some tapes are subpar, at least I will have the tape and can recapture it once I acquire a better workflow.

I would still need an interface but I'm not sure if I should go for a card (I assume they are PCI?), or an external unit.

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShock

Capturing: You're right, I won't use Vegas, but use VDub and record it in uncompressed 10-bit Huffyuv.

Don't do 10-bit, all that does is bloat files.
VHS was max 8-bit

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I'm on Win10 now, but will soon be done with the complete overhaul of my computer, and can install a Win7 partition on it if that helps.

Win7 is just easier to use than Win8/10/11, for capture. XP/7 are the best OS for capture, as that was the main era of SD analog consumer format capture.

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even if they say "good condition", that may doesn't mean much

Nope.

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as I don't know which equipment they used for playback, and they perhaps watched only the first 5 minutes to come to the "good condition" verdict, even though half way through the quality takes a dive as the tape may have been damaged.

Yep.
Also why video gear being touted as "tested" and "working" on eBay is almost always nonsense.

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The VCR buying guide has a list of JVC models that are non-TBC. What if I purchase one of those so at least I can do playback, do tests, and replace it with a TBC-capable unit down the road?

Non-TBC decks are fine for preview, rewind, etc. That recommended list doesn't really have the best non-TBC for that function, such as JVC HR-S4800U, 3800, and several others like 29xx or 59xx.

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If it turns out that some tapes are subpar, at least I will have the tape and can recapture it once I acquire a better workflow.

I would not waste time with capture, or the re-capture. Do it correctly the first time, and don't waste time. People are also lazy, and can too easily convince themselves with excuses that "crap = good / fine / good enough". Don't fall into that trap.

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I would still need an interface but I'm not sure if I should go for a card (I assume they are PCI?), or an external unit.

There are USB cards that are fine, and PCI cards that are junk. The comm methods doesn't determine card quality, the card determines card quality.

[lingyi]

lordsmurf's humility drives me crazy!

Buy a complete workflow from him, https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mar...-workflow.html

Guaranteed working top quality!

[GordonShock]

Thanks

-8-bit it is

-For Win 7, put it on USB and boot from there, or dual boot?

-99% of the time I will never capture an entire tape, but more like one or two scenes. I need to do extensive testing before I am satisfied with the results I can produce and the time it takes to achieve it. Can that be done btw, meaning to capture only a part and not the whole tape? As well, your guide tells that some VCR units are not suited for extended plays. If one wishes to only capture a section, can that be done?

-I'd rather purchase a USB than a card, and free up the slot in the process.

[latreche34]

If movies can be obtained on better digital formats that will save you a lot of time and effort and the quality will be way better.

[GordonShock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If movies can be obtained on better digital formats that will save you a lot of time and effort and the quality will be way better.

Oh, I always look for DVDs first, but a great many movies in the 90s were never digitized, or the DVD transfer was done on the cheap. When dealing with the latter, and that happens quite often, I'd rather have the tape version.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShock

-For Win 7, put it on USB and boot from there, or dual boot?

Dual boot is a PITA.
Buy this: https://amzn.to/42dMAUv
Use as dual boot selector. Separate SSDs as boot.

[latreche34]

Though I have no problem running Win 7 and Win XP on the same hard drive in dual boot mode in a laptop, but that's actually a great idea for desktops, I definitly consider using it if I ever decide to build a desktop system. Just hope I don't touch one of those power buttons during a long capture, lol.

[GordonShock]

That's a great gizmo LS!

Too bad my new tower doesn't have drive bays

I have a small 120GB ssd that's gathering, I'll use it for that.

[dpalomaki]

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If movies can be obtained on better digital formats that will save you a lot of time and effort and the quality will be way better.

Be sure to check the streaming services such as Apple TV, Amazon, NetFlix, etc. (there are a lot of them). You may be able to capture a stream perhaps even in HD. Might have to pay $3 or $4 rental to stream it (with 2-4 weeks to complete the watching as often as you like). Of course some services might not give the full credits or stick a "bug" or occasional ads in the corner of the screen.

Also some obscure stuff appears on youtube, although the quality is often marginal. And one can sometimes find stuff that is no longer available for a variety of reasons, such as Song of the South, on auction sites, although the quality is often lacking.

I see the NetFlix DVD/BD rental operation is closing in September. The world is pretty much abandoning people who don't have broadband in the home.

[traal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If movies can be obtained on better digital formats that will save you a lot of time and effort and the quality will be way better.

When the content was taped on 60i NTSC and then:

1. Released on 60i NTSC VHS
2. Released on 25i PAL DVD
3. Released on 60i NTSC DVD converted from the PAL sources

Which of the 3 is the best version?

Or how about something filmed at 1.66:1 and then:

1. Released on VHS at 1.33:1 (not P&S)
2. Released on DVD at 1.78:1 (reframed, not cropped)

Or worse:

1. Released on VHS at 1.33:1
2. Released on DVD at 1.78:1 (cropped from 480p, then resized to fill the frame)

Or how about something combining 24p film with 30p SFX, edited on video at 60i and then:

1. Released on 60i VHS
2. Released on 24p DVD

And then there are Analog Releases of Films That Contain Deleted, Extended, & Alternate Footage That've Never Been Released on DVD/BluRay.

This is why I sometimes capture things that are already available on "better" digital formats.

[lollo2]

And for foreign people like me you can add "original release of film/tv series with italian opening and closing credits and titles" and/or with "different cuts", found on VHS and not on recent DVD or BRs.

For collectors, they have high value.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

This is why I sometimes capture things that are already available on "better" digital formats.

My point still stands, find the contents that are available and capture the ones that are not, Be it a movie, a missing scene, Behind the scenes and extras, Subtitles, foreign languages ... etc. Just because a movie has an extra interview with the producer you have to keep the VHS version while a glorious BD or UHD BD is available out there. I get some people don't like to spend few bucks for a movie or not willing to do a quick search but rather spend hours working on a VHS copy, But if I'm a collector those will not be excuses for me. Just my opinion.

[lollo2]

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I get some people don't like to spend few bucks for a movie or not willing to do a quick search but rather spend hours working on a VHS copy, But if I'm a collector those will not be excuses for me. Just my opinion.

I agree! For what I really like I have the VHS (when needed), the DVD versions from USA, UK, France, Japan, Italy and all the BRs versions (standard, steelbook, limited, etc.) and their 4K variants

[GordonShock]

I deal with "gentlemen" material, so...

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Just hope I don't touch one of those power buttons during a long capture, lol.

Yes, the kryptonite of the unit.

There are are common sense mods you can do to it. Cut thin wood to size, drill holes, paint black, glue to front. That makes the buttons depressed (innie, not outie). I want to do this, but haven't yet.

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Originally Posted by GordonShock

Too bad my new tower doesn't have drive bays

Time for a new MicroATX tower?
Our main capture rigs are desktop, satellite/portable are MiniPC and laptops.

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Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Be sure to check the streaming services such as Apple TV, Amazon, NetFlix, etc. (there are a lot of them).

So much stuff.

- Netflix
- Youtube, YoutubeTV
- Amazon Prime, FreeVee
- Disney+, Hulu
- Tubi
- Paramount+, PlutoTV
- Max
- Peacock
- Xumo
- Apple

My 90s self would never believe it.

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Also some obscure stuff appears on youtube, although the quality is often marginal.

Not as much, since YoutubeTV was added. That's the pay service, but the free service got better in tandem. For example, all of The Lone Ranger is on these, in the best quality I've ever seen anywhere. No errors like cable, not crap sources like the DVDs.

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And one can sometimes find stuff that is no longer available for a variety of reasons, such as Song of the South, on auction sites, although the quality is often lacking.

Unless you know a toon collector that has a copy of the rare HK Laserdisc edition.
And VHS, both versions.

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Originally Posted by traal

This is why I sometimes capture things that are already available on "better" digital formats.

Yep.

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Originally Posted by lollo2

For collectors, they have high value.

Videophiles can be crazy. "You mean it has 2 extra seconds of footage! I must have it at any price!"
I don't get the draw to collecting sealed VHS tapes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

My point still stands, find the contents that are available and capture the ones that are not, Be it a movie, a missing scene, Behind the scenes and extras, Subtitles, foreign languages ... etc. Just because a movie has an extra interview with the producer you have to keep the VHS version while a glorious BD or UHD BD is available out there. I get some people don't like to spend few bucks for a movie or not willing to do a quick search but rather spend hours working on a VHS copy, But if I'm a collector those will not be excuses for me. Just my opinion.

Same opinion here. The sane opinion.

I'm a collector, but I'm not nuts with extra time to waste. Mixed versions, best of each source, is what many collectors do. Rip the DVD, capture the few scenes, re-edit, and done. I've actually done similar for studio projects, best sources for new delivery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShock

I deal with "gentlemen" material, so...

Some of this obviously doesn't apply here (ie, not on Netflix), but the base advice is still applicable: "best sources, as available, when available". Certain genres obviously have less sources, such as horror and others.

[lollo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lingyi

lordsmurf's humility drives me crazy!

Buy a complete workflow from him, https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mar...-workflow.html

Guaranteed working top quality!

Wow, I missed this earlier! The supposed leader with conflict of interest and his adept

Just for the sake of comparison:
Guaranteed JVC S-VHS S-9500, 349,99 EUR
https://vcrshop.com/product/vcr/vide...al-tbc-dnr-14/

New Hauppauge USB-Live 2, 41,80 EUR
https://amzn.to/412CPHZ

(or
New I-O Data GV-USB2, 67,25 EUR
https://amzn.to/411F7Xy

Total=391,79 EUR

Without frameTBC, 1/10 (a tenth) of the proposed PAL workflow! Guaranteed working top quality!

If needed, add a Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15 for 50,00 EUR or, if really really needed, add a frameTBC for <1000,00 EUR

Good-bye!

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo2

Just for the sake of comparison:

That's not a 1:1 comparison.

I could just as easily do;
- thrift store VCR, $10
- no TBCs
- Easycap from Amazon/eBay, $10
Total = $20

But you get what you pay for. And good luck getting that setup to work well whatsoever.

As an analogy:
- the thrift/Easycap/TBC-less is suggesting a can of cat food for supper (yuck)
- your suggestion is a can of store brand hash eaten with a spoon out of the can (cheap and edible)
- my suggestion is a nice meat-and-two/three plate of decent food; maybe slice of ham or a pork chop (quality)
- what I'm not suggested is anything "fancy" (lobster, steaks, caviar)

This video gear is now approaching 15-25 years old, and condition heavily matters. Video capture was a 2000s task, and it's now the 2020s.

Most modern USB capture cards are crap.
- The Live2 card is not something I suggest, mid grade card.
- The GV-USB2 does appear to be decent, but for PAL only, the NTSC results are suspect. And yes, that is odd, since Japan is NTSC. However, Japan is always IRE 0, and that seems to be the root issue. Card values are hotter than other NTSC results tested. (I didn't conduct those tests, but others have. So not 100% positive no other variable existed, even if assured. Trying to acquire this card myself had proven elusive, though it was likely pandemic related shipping snafu there, I do want to try again.)

I like VCRshop/Branko, and he provides great PAL deck prices (NTSC is not the same pricing whatsoever). I've frequently suggested him on this site forum, in private, and even offline. That said ... issues at time. But he does fix. Sometimes volume causes rushing, rushing creates errors.

I often tear down gear to the frame and bolts, especially VCRs and TBCs, then rebuild. I want my refurb work to last another decade. I do for others what I do with my own gear. More work, more time, more supplies, more costs. I even crack open video capture cards, to verify chips, due to variants.

Overall, PAL VCRs are more plentiful, and in overall better condition. Europe vs. USA/Canada consumerism is at play here, with DIY being more common here in NTSC lands, making gear change hands more in the past decades, often receiving more abuse.

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Guaranteed JVC S-VHS S-9500,

FYI, I would not get anywhere near the 9500 these days. Get the 7600 or 7611 as you first line JVC PAL deck. Others for 2nd, 3rd lines.

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add a frameTBC for <1000,00 EUR

Good luck with that. The Europe TBC market is identical to North America. You have lots of cheap flawed crap sold online for 1000 EUR/USD, and it takes more to acquire actual quality.