This is a weird issue I haven't been able to find anyone else experiencing. I'm using AmaRecTV and a AverMedia CE310B to capture tapes from a standard consumer VCR. Everything works perfectly, except when a recorded tape ends and hits static, AmaRecTV immediately crashes. It's happening on multiple tapes. I'm not sure where the issue lies so I'm fishing here for suggestions. It's extra frustrating as I have to stop the recording right before it hits static or else burn my entire session, as the resulting file after the crash is unplayable. Also, VirtualDub isn't a solution as it gives me really bad dropped frames, causing my video and audio to be out of sync, whereas AmaRecTV has no issues with dropped frames or audio sync.
VirtualDub isn't a solution as it gives me really bad dropped frames,
<sigh>
AmaRecTV is starting to become irritating.
VirtualDub doesn't cause dropped frames. If the video signal is bad (and a "bad signal" often includes visually "good video"), the capture card gets confused or overrun, and that's what causes drops. Nothing at the capture software level can change this. At most, it just dupes frames or ignores drops (disables reporting).
So the question is this: Do you properly have TBCs in use? If not, that's your problem. Capture software does not, cannot, magically preclude the need for TBCs.
AmaRecTV has bugs, regardless of how some folks insist it's perfect software. Far from it.
VirtualDub can also have dropped frames reporting disable, if that's what you want to do. Go to the timing settings, untick the top 2 options. Tada! "No more dropped frames." Now VirtualDub acts like AmaRecTV. It's the video capture equivalent of sticking your head in the sand, or closing your eyes and insisting others can't see you. It's just getting ridiculous lately.
Most VirtualDub issues are caused by bad settings, such as the timing settings, or audio preview (a mix of OS and software settings).
So, backup, and let's take a second look at VirtualDub (or 2).
- card?
- OS?
- timing settings?
- audio preview settings?
However pedantic you want to be, my videos captured in VirtualDub had unsynced audio and choppy looking framerate, whereas the ones captured in AmaRecTV didn't. But now that I'm aware of those settings in VirtualDub, I'll just try that. I use an ES15 in place of a true TBC, but personally some dropped frames aren't important as long as the audio syncs. I'm not a serious archivist and the imperfections are part of the aesthetic charm of using VHS. Thanks for the heads up.
If you want assistance, again:
- card?
- OS?
- timing settings?
- audio preview settings?
ES10 is a strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync. It's extremely minimalist, and facts affect it's success/fail rate. So I need to know more about the source tapes, and again brand/model capture card.
Using low-end junk cards can contribute, especially Easycaps, and HDMI adapters (made for DVD players and video games, not VHS videotapes).
I don't see how digital artifacts are aesthetics of VHS.
And most people appreciate details, not insult it as "pedantic". Video isn't a task for those with impatience and short attention spans.
Some workarounds you can do, Try to set AmarecTV to stop capture the moment it detects absence of VBI (meaning absence of frames), Try to see if there is a setting in the capture card driver to enable blue screen in the absence of frames, Also try VDUB with the right settings. Ultimatly you need a frame TBC that can provide a constant VBI signal regardless if the video signal is present or not. But more info is needed because it could be OS related, driver related or both.
VirtualDub can also have dropped frames reporting disable, if that's what you want to do. Go to the timing settings, untick the top 2 options. Tada! "No more dropped frames." Now VirtualDub acts like AmaRecTV. It's the video capture equivalent of sticking your head in the sand, or closing your eyes and insisting others can't see you. It's just getting ridiculous lately.
I did not read this earlier. AmarecTV reports dropped/inserted frames as VirtualDub. Is is not behaving like VirtualDub settled to remove reporting.
I am now sure you never used it or do not understand how to use it.
In any case, I should avoid loosing my time answering your frequent nonsense and blah-blah without facts
Readers may judge by themselves.
A channel on S-VHS / VHS capture and AviSynth restoration https://bit.ly/3mHWbkN
But when the drop/inserted frames happen or NOT happen, AmarecTV does a better job of synch. Period.
Then it it very likely a settings issue. I've rarely come across a card that drops regardless of settings chosen. Noting that signals must be clean, TBCs in use. And the OS can be a PITA at times, extra variable.
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I am now sure you never used it or do not understand how to use it.
No.
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Readers may judge by themselves.
Yep.
I'm glad you found a capture solution that works for you. Unfortunately for many others, it just does not. I've been able to recreate more failures than successes.
AmaRecTV is an option to investigate, but must be approached with caution. Same for OBS. There are unknown aspects to these software, and users have observe oddities or have problems.
You appear to have fully vetted your captures, and made a conclusion that no issues exist. Great!
But others have done the same due diligence, and found concerning results.
Some have outright obvious problems, no testing needed.
But in this thread, it's a simple lack of TBCs in use. Captures halting on snow is what happens in that instance.
The OP never replied to the questions asked to ascertain the issue, narrow it down.
Some workarounds you can do, Try to set AmarecTV to stop capture the moment it detects absence of VBI (meaning absence of frames), Try to see if there is a setting in the capture card driver to enable blue screen in the absence of frames, Also try VDUB with the right settings. Ultimatly you need a frame TBC that can provide a constant VBI signal regardless if the video signal is present or not. But more info is needed because it could be OS related, driver related or both.
Unfortunately these suggestions didn't work for me, but I appreciate the feedback.
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Originally Posted by lollo2
But when the drop/inserted frames happen or NOT happen, AmarecTV does a better job of synch. Period.
This is my experience so far. I follow lordsmurf's suggestions on the timing settings in VirtualDub but unfortunately the audio still wasn't as well synced as it is in AmaRecTV.
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
ES10 is a strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync. It's extremely minimalist, and facts affect it's success/fail rate. So I need to know more about the source tapes, and again brand/model capture card.
I did include my card in the OP, but I should have mention I'm on Windows 10. As I understand from my reading, the AverMedia card should be at least a step above the USB dongle solutions. I suspect it's the card bugging out and there isn't a software setting responsible. I have the latest available drivers, so otherwise I'm not sure.
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
I don't see how digital artifacts are aesthetics of VHS.
I don't care.
Ultimately it looks like my solution was to capture with a different VCR. I switched to a consumer JVC deck that displays blue screen instead of static when frames drop or the tape ends and the program doesn't crash anymore. There might be other settings in VirtualDUB that could mitigate the audio sync issues, but I don't feel like troubleshooting further when what I have going works for me. What the wider issue with the crashing was, I probably won't ever know, but I appreciate everyone's responses.
Then it it very likely a settings issue. I've rarely come across a card that drops regardless of settings chosen.
AmarecTV has no settings, because they are not needed. The settings in VirtualDub are there because it was developed at the time we were capturing with different video and audio cards!
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I'm glad you found a capture solution that works for you. Unfortunately for many others, it just does not. I've been able to recreate more failures than successes.
Your attempt to limit the "goods" only to my experience does not work. There is not a single report of a problem with AmarecTV for synch issues. Not a single one from anybody. Post a fact, otherwise.
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AmaRecTV is an option to investigate
You should start soon then!
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You appear to have fully vetted your captures, and made a conclusion that no issues exist. Great!
But others have done the same due diligence, and found concerning results.
Some have outright obvious problems, no testing needed.
Same as before. My experience is only one of course. But I have tens of friends capturing analog with many different workflows, and have access to their captures.
To support your wrong theory bring a fact, an experiement, a result. Even from others.
You won't, and it will be your classic blah-blah.
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This is my experience so far. I follow lordsmurf's suggestions on the timing settings in VirtualDub but unfortunately the audio still wasn't as well synced as it is in AmaRecTV.
No surprize there. Mine and tens of other users experience is the same. The reasons are evident and well explained many times, and there is no need to further evidences.
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I suspect it's the card bugging out and there isn't a software setting responsible.
Your problem is not related to synch/asynch. I apologize if we were off topic in this thread, but lordsmurf attitude and arguments are so silly that it was difficult to do not react.
The crash for static must be a combination of card/OS/drivers/software. Do the capture in 2 steps (1 before the static starts) and one starting just
before the end. You can debug easier and join the segments (the last will be few seconds) later.
Good luck!
P.S.: this was probably my last post here, so if you need additional help, join us on video forum
Unfortunately these suggestions didn't work for me, but I appreciate the feedback.
What suggestions? You didn't reply to the needed info above, nor was I able to provide precise suggestions for settings changes You cannot always follow random guides online, tweaks may be needed depending on factors.
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I don't care.
To be blunt, you attitude sucks. You cannot approach video with such a lazy uncaring attitude, or else you'll find yourself in this exact situation: dropped frames, audio sync, and myriad other problems.
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Originally Posted by lollo2
The settings in VirtualDub are there because it was developed at the time we were capturing with different video and audio cards!
That's not accurate at all. Only certain cards had video only, and were tethered to external audio source. There were equally as many video+audio cards, going back to the ISA hardware era (when I began in digital video), not just PCI and AGP. The ATI AIW and a few cheap Aver cards were more the exception that the norm. Integrated USB 1.1 cards existed back in the late 90s, as I had one, and it compressed to MPEG with a lower DVD-Video compliant bitrate.
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Your attempt to limit the "goods" only to my experience
I'm aware that others claim the method worked for them.
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There is not a single report of a problem with AmarecTV for synch issues.
This is not correct, when the issue is due to lack of TBC, I/O, and other standard issues that cause sync issues.
Somebody in another thread within past days reported oddities with the frame capture length, if if it was "in sync" (likely mere attenuation to cover up drops/dupes, an option in VirtualDub as well).
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Same as before. My experience is only one of course. But I have tens of friends
Great!
But in the past months alone, I've dealt with tens of people that had issue getting AmaRecTV to work for them. Hence my frustration in my first reply in this thread. In most cases, the person tries VirtualDub, and immediately gives up on it when it's not working out-of-the-box. They move on to AmaRecTV, and 9 times out of 10 the result isn't any different, or even worse (card not even seen by it).
- Step one is to always go back to VirtualDub 1.9, adjust settings.
- If fail, VirtualDub2 and variant settings.
- If fail, then re-visit AmaRecTV, but it rarely gets to this stage.
- If fail, then we're stuck with far lesser options, such as OBS or NLEs.
- This assumes it doesn't have proprietary software needs, such as Blackmagic or Matrox.
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I apologize if we were off topic in this thread, but lordsmurf attitude and arguments are so silly that it was difficult to do not react.
There's nothing silly about it. AmaRecTV is getting "too big for it's britches" lately, becoming the first line software to some folks. But that advice has produced overall bad results compared to first attempt VirtualDub with proper settings.
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The crash for static must be a combination of card/OS/drivers/software.
Nope. This is a typical situation with lack of continuous signal causes the card to send halt/bad data to the capture software. This has been unchanged for at least 25 years now. Some cards are more resilient, some are more touchy. But it is the underlying issue here. TBCs fix this simple continuity problem, often even the bare minimum ES10/15 type (though it will highly vary), and actual frame TBCs are flawless here.
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P.S.: this was probably my last post here,
Oh, come on now.
We've gotten along well for years, and I think your Avisynth work is excellent.
But one disagreement, and you have to retreat to a "safe space"? Are people really becoming so fragile these days that any disagreement, any healthy debate, make them run away and hide?
AmarecTV has no settings, because they are not needed. The settings in VirtualDub are there because it was developed at the time we were capturing with different video and audio cards!
Vdub was designed when people still had TV tuner cards and they would capture analog TV, hence the setting for different TV systems such as PAL B, G DK ..etc. You wouldn't need those now for VCR capture, Vdub would benefit from a major simplification but I'm not certain if anyone has the motivation to do so.
Take for instance MediaExpress from BM (see attached), Input format is automatically detected no need to set that up, but can be manually selected, Output format follows the input format by default, There is a setting to stop capturing if frame drop is detected. There is also a setting to stop VCR playback if frame drop is detected, But this won't work with VCRs that don't have interface control such as VHS and Betamax, That's it, one tab, Too bad it works only with their devices and there is no HyffUYV or Lagarith.
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Originally Posted by lollo2
P.S.: this was probably my last post here, so if you need additional help, join us on video forum
You shouldn't get worked up over a disagreement, We all have our bad days and good days but this is life, we sometimes agree, but sometimes disagree on certain things, Personal experiences are different and we don't see or experience things from the same angle.
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lordsmurf (05-04-2023)
The crash for static must be a combination of card/OS/drivers/software. Do the capture in 2 steps (1 before the static starts) and one starting just
before the end. You can debug easier and join the segments (the last will be few seconds) later.
One of the things that baffled me was, if I started a recording a few seconds before the static, it wouldn't crash. But when I tried to capture a tape from the beginning (the shortest I tried with was about 30 min) it would.
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
What suggestions? You didn't reply to the needed info above, nor was I able to provide precise suggestions for settings changes You cannot always follow random guides online, tweaks may be needed depending on factors.
That pretty clearly wasn't a reply to you. The reason I didn't provide the info you requested is that you're only interested in helping people in the sense that you're guiding them towards the solution you feel is best, not the solution they want. Which isn't to say you're unhelpful - actually the opposite - just single minded on the topic.
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
To be blunt, you attitude sucks. You cannot approach video with such a lazy uncaring attitude, or else you'll find yourself in this exact situation: dropped frames, audio sync, and myriad other problems.
That's pretty rich. Your depth of knowledge is likely the only reason people don't tell you to GFY more often. The information in your posts have definitely helped me make decisions in my workflow and choices. But I'll never forget stumbling upon a thread where a dying man was asking for the best solution to back up some family tapes for his children, and stated a fairly modest budget he had, and you just (for lack of a better word) autistically droned on about his need for a TBC, instead of understanding that some dropped frames and sync issues that might pop up are less important than the preservation of family memories for his children from a poor dying man and giving him a realistic solution.
And again, I do not care that you don't understand, because my aesthetic values trump yours in my projects. And I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you of something that you're not going to understand, because we value different things, and that's OK.
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
Nope. This is a typical situation with lack of continuous signal causes the card to send halt/bad data to the capture software.
And yet, VirtualDub did not experience the issue. Yes, the frame drop is part of it, but it's clearly a combination of things. If it wasn't, then swapping my VCR wouldn't have worked. Again, different values, etc. I still find VirtualDub handy for de-interlacing and filtering my captures, but the audio doesn't sync as well as it does with AmaRecTV for me.
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lordsmurf (05-04-2023)
The reason I didn't provide the info you requested is that you're only interested in helping people in the sense that you're guiding them towards the solution you feel is best, not the solution they want. Which isn't to say you're unhelpful - actually the opposite - just single minded on the topic.
The constant problem with analog videotape capture is this attempt to avoid proper tools. Not using a TBC is like grilling a steak, but being too stubborn or cheap to buy grilling tongs, so instead you stick your hand in the pit to grab out the hot meat. At times, guiding folks in the world of analog video is like trying to talk sense to toddlers. "Why?" and "I don't wanna!"
Youtube is a constant source of misinformation these days. And certain vocal folks on certain sites (and no, not lollo2) try to shout you down, and have even bigger temper tantrums when you don't agree with them.
So forgive me if I came across aggressive in my first post here, but it does get tiresome reading or listening to the online drivel. Not you, not this site, not anybody here, but the BS that sometimes filters here.
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But I'll never forget stumbling upon a thread where a dying man was asking for the best solution to back up some family tapes for his children, and stated a fairly modest budget he had, and you just (for lack of a better word) autistically droned on about his need for a TBC, instead of understanding that some dropped frames and sync issues that might pop up are less important than the preservation of family memories for his children from a poor dying man and giving him a realistic solution.
I vaguely recall that thread, but all was not as stated. PMs sometimes clarify.
Again, the problem with not having any form of TBC is that it's often not just "some dropped frames and sync issues", which is brush-off excuse to diminish the reality of the situation. Audio skew tends to be heavy, and dropped frames tends to be many. To the point where a scene can change, and people are still talking seconds later. Or so many frames dropped that the scene is completely obliterated.
As an example, try walking, while slowly blinking your eyes. Good luck not bumping into something, or even tripping over your own feet. For the audio, put an earplug in one ear, and chew gum. That's essentially what happens at the video level.
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And again, I do not care that you don't understand, because my aesthetic values trump yours in my projects.
If you want that aesthetic, fine, I guess. But it's not a "VHS look" or even analog, but simply a digital artifact created by bad conversion means.
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And I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you of something that you're not going to understand, because we value different things, and that's OK.
Yep, it's perfectly fine.
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And yet, VirtualDub did not experience the issue. Yes, the frame drop is part of it, but it's clearly a combination of things. If it wasn't, then swapping my VCR wouldn't have worked. Again, different values, etc. I still find VirtualDub handy for de-interlacing and filtering my captures, but the audio doesn't sync as well as it does with AmaRecTV for me.
End-of-signal is handled different. I've seen the AmaRecTV crash here, too.
I need to overhaul sanlyn's guide sometime, since he has disappeared (during Covid-19, with health issues, and I hope nothing bad happened to him).
To help with capturing, I have to have a baseline of info, and then more questions continue from there. We'll solve it eventually. But again, it takes some patience.
As far as TBC, "some form" of TBC is required. The further away you get from actual TBCs, the worse it gets. But even a minimalist ES10/15 is better than nothing.
The OS comes into play.
And the capture card does as well. There are "more resilient" cards, and "weak" cards, in terms of signal processing. Dropped frames (and thus audio skew) happens due to malformed video data intercept. Some cards intercept better, some fail immediately. But it's also heavily dependent on the VCR/camera in use, source tape format, recording mode, etc. There's not a single easy checklist. I actually tried to make one, but it was a flowchart that looks like a family tree of now back to George Washington and down again. Maybe I should try to tackle that again, but in a different (still unknown) presentation format.
I'll guide folks to capture success, as I have for decades. But patience, cooperation.
I use an ES15 in place of a true TBC, but personally some dropped frames aren't important as long as the audio syncs. I'm not a serious archivist and the imperfections are part of the aesthetic charm of using VHS.
Actually they aren't because a CRT (the viewscreen of the VHS era) was able to handle mistimed frames where today's capture cards can't. A good TBC cleans up the signal enough for the capture card so it looks like you're viewing the VHS on a CRT again. Dropped frames are modern artifacts, so allowing them in your captures would be a bit of an anachronism.
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lordsmurf (05-04-2023)
Now VirtualDub acts like AmaRecTV. It's the video capture equivalent of sticking your head in the sand, or closing your eyes and insisting others can't see you. It's just getting ridiculous lately.
