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  #1  
10-27-2023, 06:38 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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Hello everyone,

Been reading this website for long, but I recently registered. I am not an expert but now I'm starting to digitize most of my tapes, PAL based +70 some childhood memories, family meetings, TV recordings and some comercial rare tapes (VHS and VHS-C).

Not gonna do any streaming or authoring... just preserve in great quality and then dump it.

This is my setup, it is not too bad right?

  • PC: W10 AMD Ryzen 5 processor NVIDIA RTX3080 quite good machine
  • S-VHS: JVC HR-DVS3EU
  • DVD: Panasonic DRM-ES10, PAL
  • Capture Device: Hauppauge USB Live 2
  • NO EXTERNAL TBC (sorry it is too expensive for me)
  • VHS-C to VHS adapter: JVC C-P7U
  • Software: AmaRecTV

This is how I connect everything:

S-VHS player (S-Video out) ----> (S-Video rear in) Panasonic DRM-ES10----(SCART rear AV1 out---> adapter to S-Video---> S-Video out)---->Hauppauge S-Video in--->USB to Windows. For audio use the red and white cables from S-VHS to camera.

Just some points to highlight after a lot of research:

1) I read here that's preferably to use the SCART output (with an S-Video adapter) than S-Video on this PAL decks.

2) The VHS-C adapter is the recommended one on this forum.

3) Setups below are based on a general opinion of users on this forum.

S-VHS configuration:
  • B.E.S.T.---OFF
  • IMAGE CONTROL----NORM
  • DIGITAL 3R----OFF
  • DIGITAL TBC/NR---ON
  • VIDEO STABILIZER---OFF
  • IN OUT SETTING----L1 OUT S-VIDEO

DVD Panasonic DRM-ES10 settings:
  • Picture> COMB FILTER> ON
  • Picture > AV-in NR > OFF
  • Display> Grey Background
  • Connection > AV Output > S-Video

4) It is not new here that it is a PITA to make VirtualDub work PROPERLY with this USB capture device, so, if anyone have been ABLE TO make it work properly I beg his/her assistance . I also have the Pinnacle Movie Box Deluxe, quite old I guess it's not worth...

So I am using AmarecTV with NOT IMPORTANT ISSUES on first recordings, 0 dropped frames, audio synced. Thanks to @Lollo2

5) AmaRecTV setup: I tried and installed HuffYuV following the @LordSmurf guide , no errors appeared but the software cannot detect this codec so I use Lagarith.

Do you guys think the connections and setup are correct? Would you give me your thougts on this to improve? I can't afford an external TBC and I won't buy more equipment so I'll try to do my best with these things.

I could add some samples if needed because, as a newbie, I found it really hard to analyze and identify the errors on capture tests...

Thanks
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  #2  
10-28-2023, 06:29 AM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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As promised I upload some video samples. S-VHS (IMAGE CONTROL --> EDIT, TBC-NR on/off, and Digital 3R on/off) Panasonic DRM-ES10 on passthrough settings in previous post, output SCART to S-Video adapter.

Please check them I await for your comments


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  #3  
10-28-2023, 11:14 PM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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My understanding is if you use the ES10, that you want the line TBC in the VCR to be off. Basically it avoids and extra analog to digital to analog conversion step (within the VCR) that doesn't need to happen since the ES10 is going to (more or less) do something similar. Might want to try it that way as well.
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  #4  
10-29-2023, 11:42 AM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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Thanks, mate. I'll do more tests with different setup and share them here. Anyway I'd like more thoughts on this, especially from veteran users.
By the way HuffYUV now works on AmarecTV, I guess it doesn't matter use this or Lagarith, both are Lossless.
Will I get more quality if I use Hauppauge on VirtualDub 1.9 on W7? I could make a partition on the disc where W10 it's installed, but I don't know if it will improve my videos... Maybe it is too much work for nothing noticeable!
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  #5  
10-29-2023, 12:45 PM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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I don't know that there's technically an advantage in the capture stage of using say virtual dub over Amarec, iuVCR, or the like. As long as you are capturing lossless, the application supports the capture card/OS you want to use, doesn't have audio sync issues, and you and see some sort of statistic that shows if you have dropped/inserted frames, and works on the OS you are able to use it with, I don't know that any are actually "better" than the others.

If you are compressing at the same time as capture, then yeah, you'd probably see some differences performance wise between what's out there.

Win10 generally doesn't get recommended much by the veterans since it doesn't support any of the most highly recommended cards, but if the card you are definitely going to be using works in Win10 (and you're happy with the quality and doesn't matter if there's a few dropped frames that you may or may not be aware of (or if you're confident in your TBC to prevent dropped frames)), I don't see why you'd build a separate capture PC or use a different OS.

The issue is that there aren't great capture comparisons out there to compare say the recommended setup of an AIW XP machine with virtualdub or MMC to say a Win10 PC with a GV-USB2 using a more modern capture program to see if it's worth it *to you* to invest a bunch of time and money in older hardware that may or may not work for an unknown level of potential quality improvement.

There are also not any videos showing an ATI600 clone vs the GV-USB2 (which is still available to buy, has Win10 drivers, and does pass interlaced 480i). The only reason I think you'd use win7 is if you wanted to use a ATI600 USB capture card or clone. XP is used for anything AIW.

I was actually able to get an ATI600 clone to "work" in win10, but I can't get it to pass interlaced content using some Vidbox drivers, so unless a workaround to that is found, It's unfortunate that's all that's stopping those clones from being used with win10.

Post here with the drivers that allow it work but without interlacing: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...icker-ati.html If anyone figures out how to get interlacing back, I'd be very interested to know.
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  #6  
11-03-2023, 01:09 AM
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The main issue here, in this workflow, is that ES10/15 is not a frame TBC, or even a TBC at all. It's a DVD recorder that contains a strong+crippled line TBC, a non-TBC frame sync (bakes in frame/temporal errors, does not correct; passes errors as well), and has the downsides of the unit (posterization, luma, AGC, etc). It's only suggested for tearing issues, where the net result is better. Or when a lower quality non-TBC VCR is in use, which has nothing.

The ES10/15 is actually redundant to the line TBC in the JVC --- but of lesser quality, in general, save for tearing scenarios.

If the ES10/15 was "just as good" as a frame TBC, don't you think we'd all be doing it? Nobody likes buying boring tools for $1k+, but it's the tool required for the task of quality conversion (or conversion at all).

- Live2 is a mid-grade card (there are issues, but it's no Easycap aka Easycrap).
- AmaRecTV ignores drop frames --- but understand the drops/inserts still happen, it's not magicware, merely a lack of reporting. If I close my eyes, you can't see me, right? Realize that video signal incurred drops differ from system based drops, and the latter is what I believe the AmaRecTV frame counter counts. I'll be re-testing all of this soon enough, as well as all of the "it" cards of late (Live2, GV-USB2, others).

^ That setup will work, but there will always be lingering questions until you 100% watch every capture to be 100% sure no errors exist. It's a "janky setup" of sorts, functional but unreliable. It's not really a matter of "if" errors happen, but rather "how many" errors you detect. That last aspect depends on factors like source condition.

This is the tradeoff made when you lack actual TBCs. It has nothing to do with "pro quality", but is simply a basic tool required for basic conversions. It's like saying you don't want a simple standard lawnmower because you're not a "pro lawn service".

Overall system stability is a reason to avoid Win10/11. It's just not as stable as Win7.

Is that capture cards adding false sharpness? I see halos on the menu still image.

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  #7  
11-16-2023, 12:07 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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Hi! Thanks to both! I've been quite busy so couldn't reply until now. There is some "good" news because I finally made VirtualDub + Hauppauge USB Live 2 + Windows 10 64 bits work. Couldn't install w7 because disk is nvme a PITA to install W7, but I can confirm hardware and software are truly compatible.

I made some test with and old commercial tape today (maybe a little "damaged") so could you please check and comment? I have some different content tape so if you need I could provide more examples (please tell me what do you need), I'll upload a well-condition commercial tape test as well.

When checking logs after these short vids 0 frames dropped 0 framed inserted, in Sync tab I see 1ms in Current error.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
If the ES10/15 was "just as good" as a frame TBC, don't you think we'd all be doing it? Nobody likes buying boring tools for $1k+, but it's the tool required for the task of quality conversion (or conversion at all).
Sure, I understand but as I said before I couldn't afford this kind of device, sorry. I just try to do my best with these means, without acrimony .

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

- AmaRecTV ignores drop frames --- but understand the drops/inserts still happen, it's not magicware, merely a lack of reporting. If I close my eyes, you can't see me, right? Realize that video signal incurred drops differ from system based drops, and the latter is what I believe the AmaRecTV frame counter counts. I'll be re-testing all of this soon enough, as well as all of the "it" cards of late (Live2, GV-USB2, others).
I am trying now VirtualDub 1.9.11 (sanlyn settings).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

Is that capture cards adding false sharpness? I see halos on the menu still image.
Not sure, I upload 2 tests there is a weird menu playback error, when I only use the SVHS I cannot watch it well, but no problems on tape playback. When I use SVHS trough Panasonic the SVHS menu is fine.
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11-16-2023, 12:41 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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So here are my first VirtualDub tests, VHS commercial old tape I'm not sure it's a very good example... maybe you need an action scene (characters fighting for example)

Thanks



Last edited by JaiFai4K; 11-16-2023 at 12:55 PM.
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  #9  
11-16-2023, 12:54 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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Same scene, more tests only SVHS


Attached Files
File Type: avi test only SVHS NORM-D3R ON-TBC ON.avi (81.62 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: avi test only SVHS NORM-D3R OFF-TBC ON.avi (81.57 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: avi test only SVHS EDIT-D3R ON-TBC ON.avi (81.60 MB, 1 downloads)
File Type: avi test only SVHS EDIT-D3R OFF-TBC ON.avi (81.42 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #10  
11-16-2023, 01:02 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt View Post

Post here with the drivers that allow it work but without interlacing: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...icker-ati.html If anyone figures out how to get interlacing back, I'd be very interested to know.
Thanks for your interest I don't know if I understood your message very well but I am using the latest drivers available from the Hauppauge website and the capture works well in both AmarecTV and VirtualDub.

I haven't record a full tape with VirtualDub to check if there is out of sync problems, but I am pretty sure that AmarecTV do the trick.
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  #11  
11-16-2023, 02:20 PM
JaiFai4K JaiFai4K is offline
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This is a clip of the Disney's Dinosaur VHS, I think it looks awesome, please check and share your thoughts!


Attached Files
File Type: avi test 2 SVHS NORM D3R OFF-TBC ON + DMR.avi (86.27 MB, 26 downloads)
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  #12  
11-18-2023, 09:35 AM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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Dinosaur clip looks pretty darn good to me. I guess I'm not used to PAL with more vertical resolution haha. There were no issues with macrovision with that? Could just be that the capture card ignores that?
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  #13  
11-30-2023, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt View Post
Dinosaur clip looks pretty darn good to me. I guess I'm not used to PAL with more vertical resolution haha. There were no issues with macrovision with that? Could just be that the capture card ignores that?
I guess so, but I'm not an expert. I did some more test on commercial VHS tapes and they're stunning, maybe I've found the best capture setup (for me). I'd like to get more feedback from more users tho. Maybe it's not the most interesant thread haha
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11-30-2023, 11:47 AM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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Yeah, I get that frustration about wanting more opinions haha. Problem is that no one really has the same source tape and exact setup to give an idea of if they think their version of that same capture would look better with different hardware or settings. I'd try Lord Smurf's suggestion and try using the line TBC on the VCR on and delete the ES10 from the chain altogether. I think the main reason to use an ES10 is if you are having image stability issues/jitter or you are getting odd geometry/tearing visible on screen. If you aren't seeing that, you could probably take it out of the chain and possibly see an increase in image detail.

I do see some users always run with an ES10 in the chain since they won't know on a lot of captures whether there will be geometry issues until long after the capture (if they aren't babysitting it the whole time and watching live). Some detail loss in that case could make the image look better and maybe prevent the need to re-capture a lot of footage when you find out later that the capture didn't go as planned. Each time the tape is run through a player, there's potential for accelerated degradation, so you want to keep recaptures to a minimum, not to mention the added time involved.

Another interesting thing you might consider during your testing is to simultaneously capture the same playback with a couple of capture devices. I believe your VCR has two S-Video outs, so that's perfect for direct comparisons. Granted, that does mean getting at least another capture card to put at the end of both chains if you were considering an alternative).
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  #15  
11-30-2023, 03:44 PM
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The luma in that last clip is blown out badly, to illegal levels, harsh overexposure. That's the luma issue with ES10/15 in PAL.

Posterization is easily seen as well, in these CG sorts of scenes. Gradients not smooth, but rough, and the quality "sticks" (mouse trails -ish) as it moves. You can see this in the monkey's chest. The harsh NR causes this. And it's never truly off, the "'on/off" is more like "high/low", and always present. Sometimes high/low (on/off) is indistinguishable from one another. It "looks digital", but doesn't have to.

Try to capture without the ES10, to view proper levels. You may have all sorts of other issues, but the goal is simply to view the luma.

All of this gets more obvious viewed beyond a tiny preview window.

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  #16  
12-09-2023, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt View Post
Yeah, I get that frustration about wanting more opinions haha. Problem is that no one really has the same source tape and exact setup to give an idea of if they think their version of that same capture would look better with different hardware or settings. I'd try Lord Smurf's suggestion and try using the line TBC on the VCR on and delete the ES10 from the chain altogether. I think the main reason to use an ES10 is if you are having image stability issues/jitter or you are getting odd geometry/tearing visible on screen. If you aren't seeing that, you could probably take it out of the chain and possibly see an increase in image detail.

I do see some users always run with an ES10 in the chain since they won't know on a lot of captures whether there will be geometry issues until long after the capture (if they aren't babysitting it the whole time and watching live). Some detail loss in that case could make the image look better and maybe prevent the need to re-capture a lot of footage when you find out later that the capture didn't go as planned. Each time the tape is run through a player, there's potential for accelerated degradation, so you want to keep recaptures to a minimum, not to mention the added time involved.

Another interesting thing you might consider during your testing is to simultaneously capture the same playback with a couple of capture devices. I believe your VCR has two S-Video outs, so that's perfect for direct comparisons. Granted, that does mean getting at least another capture card to put at the end of both chains if you were considering an alternative).
Thanks for the advise, I attach two clips, no ES10 on the chain, I am not planning to acquire another capture card unless this little one pass away... Regarding the macrovision point, I tried other commercial tapes and there is no trace of macrovision on capture, maybe this one can skip, only issues I can perceive (tv recordings) are noises probably caused when originally recorded the tapes (I remember it was a cheap SAMSUNG TV with VCR).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The luma in that last clip is blown out badly, to illegal levels, harsh overexposure. That's the luma issue with ES10/15 in PAL.

Posterization is easily seen as well, in these CG sorts of scenes. Gradients not smooth, but rough, and the quality "sticks" (mouse trails -ish) as it moves. You can see this in the monkey's chest. The harsh NR causes this. And it's never truly off, the "'on/off" is more like "high/low", and always present. Sometimes high/low (on/off) is indistinguishable from one another. It "looks digital", but doesn't have to.

Try to capture without the ES10, to view proper levels. You may have all sorts of other issues, but the goal is simply to view the luma.

All of this gets more obvious viewed beyond a tiny preview window.
Thank you, master . I upload right now a small clip of the same movie and another movie both without ES10, only SVHS and TBC on, check luma.

By the way do you know why the still menu is acting like that (check my clip on upper post "test SVHS menu weird.avi") anyway it seems is not affecting the video playback.


Attached Files
File Type: avi Test Dinosaur only SVHS svideo TBC on.avi (86.53 MB, 12 downloads)
File Type: avi Test Seventh Little brother only SVHS svideo TBC on.av.avi (86.28 MB, 7 downloads)
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  #17  
12-09-2023, 03:33 PM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The luma in that last clip is blown out badly, to illegal levels, harsh overexposure. That's the luma issue with ES10/15 in PAL.

Posterization is easily seen as well, in these CG sorts of scenes. Gradients not smooth, but rough, and the quality "sticks" (mouse trails -ish) as it moves. You can see this in the monkey's chest. The harsh NR causes this. And it's never truly off, the "'on/off" is more like "high/low", and always present. Sometimes high/low (on/off) is indistinguishable from one another. It "looks digital", but doesn't have to.

Try to capture without the ES10, to view proper levels. You may have all sorts of other issues, but the goal is simply to view the luma.

All of this gets more obvious viewed beyond a tiny preview window.
What do you use to determine if luma or other color levels are clipped/outside of legal limits? Guessing it's some sort of software vectorscope/waveform monitor, but not sure.
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  #18  
12-09-2023, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt View Post
What do you use to determine if luma or other color levels are clipped/outside of legal limits? Guessing it's some sort of software vectorscope/waveform monitor, but not sure.
It's obvious in comparative clips, as you see in this thread.

But in general, yes, you'd need software scope/monitor. However, you have to realize the damage can be with the source (the videotape), so never jump to conclusion. Even comparative testing can fool you, such as when low quality VCRs clip values low without compensation (which leads to luma and chroma errors, obvious to the eye, but not to the scopes/monitors).

Remember, visual medium. It's not just about the numbers. It can be, but sometimes numbers just mislead. There is "correct subjective" and "wrong subjective" (wrong opinions, based on error).

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  #19  
12-10-2023, 11:00 PM
aramkolt aramkolt is offline
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Would be nice if older capture programs like virtualdub had vectorscope/waveform monitor functions. I messed with some plugin a while back in virtualdub that would show those, but only on already captured clips, so you couldn't really use it "live" per se as you'd make proc amp adjustments. I feel that would be useful with proc amp stuff with a tape played back with test color bars on it. That way, you at least know what the specific video chain is doing to the colors.

I did find out that they do make vectorscope/waveform monitors that will accept signals other than just composite - there are some that'll take SDI, S-Video, and Component made by Videotek. I haven't decided how useful that would be in the end unless you're trying to get one shot encoding without editing or correcting - such as recording to a DVD with a DVD recorder. All capture cards have a bit different color levels that can be kind of hard to correct for though.

OBS apparently also has a vectorscope/waveform monitor plugin in which is kind of nice since it can be used live, and you get to see what the computer sees as it would get recorded as opposed to guessing if the colors will be affected by the capture card itself. That way you also don't have to hope that default "digital proc amp" settings are accurate on any given capture card.
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