H.264 pro recorder video/audio sync issues?

[badonica]

Spec
Windows 7
X58 Chipset Motherboard ASUS P6T
3 Hard Drives
16GB Ram

Workflow
Hardware:
JVC S7955 VCR
DATAVIDEO TBC 1000
Black Magic H264 Pro Recorder
Citronic Sound Mixer ( lift the volume with the H264 Pro Recorder)
Capture software is Black Magic Design Media Express.

Hi,
Trying to solve a problem, can anyone help.

Using the above hardware / PC spec
I’m trying to capture a vhs tape to H264
But experiencing video/ audio sync issues
I’ve also noticed that the VCR tape count time keeps changing up and down + (BEST keeps flashing up )and the VCR tape time which says 2.5hours is different to the Software capture time which says 3 hours?
I’m stuck with what hardware I’ve got at the moment but welcome any feedback.

Kind Regards Tom

[lordsmurf]

- good VCR, if working properly
- good TBC, if working properly
- terrible infamous capture card for VHS
- H.264 is a delivery format, not a capture/ingest format

BM carsd are for HD, and SD was an "also does" added poor-afterthought feature. Even BM techs admit that the card is not good, not suggested, for consumer analog SD sources, like VHS. It works fine for some tasks, but for this exact task (VHS capture) it's the wrong tool.

So the problem here is the capture card. That's easy enough to fix.

[aramkolt]

Hmm. I'd have thought the TBC1000 would have made prevented any audio sync issues even if using it with non-ideal hardware. Is the Audio off by a fixed amount or does it get further and further out of sync as the recording goes on?

Do you mind posting a capture of what you're getting? I'm curious about the quality of the capture.

If you don't intend to do any editing at all (now or later), H264 could be ok to capture to if it's not producing a bunch of blocky artifacts. I suppose. Guess it all depends on if you are happy with the current quality as well. I envision this is what people would capture if they plan to upload to YouTube without any editing and don't want to take up much hard drive space in the meantime.

The tape counter doing odd things (it's displayed on the VCR itself, right?) I don't think would be related to any of the rest of your capture chain as it kind of does its own thing and is outputing video only. It can't really tell what is connected to it for output and shouldn't be influenced by it unless there's some sort of very odd feedback coming backwards through your audio/video output cables. (I've had that happen to me actually with a AIW9000 - turned out the monitor I was using was going bad and was putting some sort of interference out backwards through the AIW AGP card....)

You might try just playing your tape with nothing attached to the VCR and see if it still flashes BEST and has the counter fluctuations to verify if the VCR itself has something wrong. If your audio/control head isn't fully plugged in, I could see the counter being confused, but not sure beyond that.

Other thing I'd suggest is try a different VCR (can be a low grade consumer one) to verify that the rest of your setup otherwise doesn't have sync issues. You might even try capturing a DVD and if you're getting sync errors with that too then it's likely not a timebase error problem. You'd think if it was dropping tons of frames that your capture would be shorter and not longer, that is unless you have the recorder set to somehow change the frame rate from the native 29.97

[latreche34]

While BM H264 Pro Recorder does not have any signal timing correction, it should work with TBC-1000. I suspect you have a faulty VCR, Though never heard of this fault before, It doesn't sound good when you get the pulse count fluctuates and B.E.S.T indicator flashing. As always, process of elimination testing is required.

[lordsmurf]

TBC, no TBC, this card has known issues.

BM has been infamous, for more than a decade now, for having timing/sync/frame issues, even with the best DataVideo/Cypress TBCs in use in the workflow. The card has issues. It's extremely touchy, and was designed for near-perfect HD signals, not lossy chaotic analog SD signals.

[badonica]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

It was a 3 hour capture so can’t really post it but the visual quality was pretty good.
The audio sync error seems to be constant
I’ve used a BM Intensity Pro with the same System but capture was from mini Dv camera and no TBC and didn’t have any issues.
I just wanted to capture H264 on the fly as it’s just a file where no editing was involved and I’ve never captured in that format so it was for a challenge as well.
There are a couple of variables involved as to the issues discussed, faulty vcr / TBC.
So a lot of trial and error as it’s the first time I’ve used the vcr and TBC.
Cheers everyone.

[aramkolt]

If you are otherwise happy with your setup and the audio is ahead of the video by a fixed amount, you can run the audio through an "audio delay" device which does exactly what you'd think - it holds the audio in a buffer on a rolling basis and delays the output by a fixed number of milliseconds or seconds. If the delay is several seconds, your options are more limited as these devices all have maximums. There are also computer programs that can do that - sometimes the feature is called "sync offset." Sync offset is what is used in OBS which is free- but I'm not sure if you can use OBS as a passthrough for delaying audio input and then have it output with the delay or not. Usuall short audio delays are built into certain frame syncs like the DPS475 if they have the audio option.

In your case, I'd probably try a few computer applications to find one that works and run it on an older laptop to delay the audio and have it go right back into your H264 capture after that.

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

JVC S7955 VCR
DATAVIDEO TBC 1000

Is either item known to be good? Has the 1000 been reviewed by someone like lordsmurf or Diopter_Doctor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

Black Magic H264 Pro Recorder

Are you looking for any particular level of quality? Or just to get it captured in h264 and it looks how it looks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

- terrible infamous capture card for VHS

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

I’m stuck with what hardware I’ve got at the moment but welcome any feedback.

Did you choose it on purpose for this workflow? Does "stuck" with this hardware mean you don't still have other options like the Intensity Pro capture card to test with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

Citronic Sound Mixer ( lift the volume with the H264 Pro Recorder)

Is this required? Did you try capturing with this completely removed from your capture chain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

I’m trying to capture a vhs tape to H264

Poor capture device + poor capture format

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

- H.264 is a delivery format, not a capture/ingest format

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

But experiencing video/ audio sync issues

How would you describe said issues?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Is the Audio off by a fixed amount or does it get further and further out of sync as the recording goes on?

This will be helpful to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

It was a 3 hour capture so can’t really post it but the visual quality was pretty good.

Are you satisfied with that quality if that's how all your captures look when finished?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

The audio sync error seems to be constant

Constantly out of sync for a fixed amount of time at beginning and at end?
Constantly getting more and/or less out of sync as it goes?
Constantly doing something else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

I’ve used a BM Intensity Pro with the same System

By using "the same system," do you just mean it's the same PC for capture? Different playback device (VCR versus DV camcorder); with TBC versus no TBC; capture with Intensity Pro versus H264 Pro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

I’ve used a BM Intensity Pro with the same System but capture was from mini Dv camera and no TBC and didn’t have any issues.

If you still have that camera and it has s-video and/or composite input, you can do VCR --s-video(or composite)--> camcorder --firewire(1394)--> PC and see how a DV capture acts in comparison. If the h264 capture is low enough quality then the DV may even look similar quality-wise. Doesn't the Intensity Pro have a breakout cable with analog inputs that you can test as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badonica

I just wanted to capture H264 on the fly as it’s just a file where no editing was involved and I’ve never captured in that format so it was for a challenge as well.

Does this mean you're just testing stuff out for fun, or is there a capture project that needs to be done with this workflow?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

If you are otherwise happy with your setup

I really despise this sort of wimpy platitude, and want to snuff it out when I read it.

The reason that people post at sites like this is because they're having issues, and that reason is usually because they don't know what they don't know. (And my responses educate, troubleshoot, solve the issue.)

How can you be pleased when
(1) all you have is issues, and
(2) you're not actually aware of what quality looks/sounds like (or can look/sound like), nor how quality the user experience (UX) can/should be (ie, not so many problems, or steps, or otherwise be a PITA -- within reason, within norms of the quality process)

I stand for knowledge, education, being informed.
I'm against uninformed, uneducated, random, half-ass, haphazard.

Quote:

and the audio is ahead of the video by a fixed amount, you can run the audio through an "audio delay" device

No.

Quote:

sometimes the feature is called "sync offset." Sync offset is what is used in OBS which is free- but I'm not sure

No.

Quote:

In your case, I'd probably try a few computer applications to find one

No.

Quote:

that works and run it on an older laptop to delay the audio and have it go right back into your H264 capture after that.

No.

[badonica]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Hmm. I'd have thought the TBC1000 would have made prevented any audio sync issues even if using it with non-ideal hardware. Is the Audio off by a fixed amount or does it get further and further out of sync as the recording goes on?p

“It’s seems to be off by a fixed amount”

Do you mind posting a capture of what you're getting? I'm curious about the quality of the capture.

“It was a 3 hour capture - I will see if I can edit a section out “

If you don't intend to do any editing at all (now or later), H264 could be ok to capture to if it's not producing a bunch of blocky artifacts. I suppose. Guess it all depends on if you are happy with the current quality as well. I envision this is what people would capture if they plan to upload to YouTube without any editing and don't want to take up much hard drive space in the meantime.

“I don’t intend to edit yet, I would however like to capture H264/5 on the fly, so any guidance would be most welcome”

The tape counter doing odd things (it's displayed on the VCR itself, right?) I don't think would be related to any of the rest of your capture chain as it kind of does its own thing and is outputing video only. It can't really tell what is connected to it for output and shouldn't be influenced by it unless there's some sort of very odd feedback coming backwards through your audio/video output cables. (I've had that happen to me actually with a AIW9000 - turned out the monitor I was using was going bad and was putting some sort of interference out backwards through the AIW AGP card....)

You might try just playing your tape with nothing attached to the VCR and see if it still flashes BEST and has the counter fluctuations to verify if the VCR itself has something wrong. If your audio/control head isn't fully plugged in, I could see the counter being confused, but not sure beyond that.

“I will experiment as advised above”

Other thing I'd suggest is try a different VCR (can be a low grade consumer one) to verify that the rest of your setup otherwise doesn't have sync issues. You might even try capturing a DVD and if you're getting sync errors with that too then it's likely not a timebase error problem. You'd think if it was dropping tons of frames that your capture would be shorter and not longer, that is unless you have the recorder set to somehow change the frame rate from the native 29.97

“ Currently trying few VCR’s”

“Thanks for your guidance- really help-full “