RetroTINK 4K test for analog capture?

[briansemerick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

You can see everything that was analog start to transition towards digital. The TVs went to hybrid analog/digital and VCRs started were made more cheaply. I don’t think it would make sense financially for someone to make gear that was better than gear that was made back then. Those guys had basically unlimited budgets. If they were going to do that they probably would have already. That would be cool if there was enough financial incentive but I don’t think there is.

I mean the same could be said for the RT4K. Some of the consoles that it is mainly used for are 40 years old, yet it was just developed recently. With FPGA a lot is possible.

[Gary34]

If it was good for VHS then I would expect it to be marketed specifically for VHS and to places that do actual archive work to be considering it instead of YouTube people. Still good thread and it’s interesting hearing NJroadfan’s take on this because he is the only person I have heard with a lot of experience that is looking into the Retrotink.

[briansemerick]

I'm not sure what you mean by "YouTube people." Unless you mean that I happened to post versions on my channel. I'm archiving this to archive it. That's just the easiest way to share to the masses currently. I'll likely put them up on my archive.org account. others have done that for a lot of the ones I'm doing but they mostly look way worse.

[Gary34]

I don’t mean you and I liked the samples I saw of your’s. I’m talking about Retro RGB.

[briansemerick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I don’t mean you and I liked the samples I saw of your’s. I’m talking about Retro RGB.

oh, gotcha. Well, I guess Bob's sort of a Youtuber. But mostly he runs his site. He does weekly Q&A responses to the site.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

My other hobbies have been in the same ballpark as this price wise but this is the only one that the price is soo controversial to the general population. Before this I had bought a drone and goggles for 2 grand then bought accessories and an editing computer for it. I would talk to other hobbyist on YouTube about mine and they would talk to me about upgrading or w/e. Those lose their value really quickly because something else comes out. That thing could get ruined easily. If you bring this up to the same demographic on the same platform it’s a completely different reaction but these werent really marketed towards the general population though.

The pushback against TBCs is a recent trend.

It's mostly based on immaturity and ignorance, primarily from some overly vocal bad actors online (and almost entirely on Reddit, Youtube, the most debased/pedestrian places online). Bandwagoners jump into the fray, armed with their keyboard warrior pitchforks. It's so ridiculous.

Yes, the economy is partly to blame, both for prices, and willingness to buy -- but that can literally be said about everything. Food, fuel, gadgets, whatever. Welcome to economics 101. So, again, it's about spending priorities. If you want to convert video, these are the tools needed for it, and tools cost money.

For example, I'd love a new phone. New apps hog too much space, which my old phone doesn't have, so I keep having to choose what to uninstall. And yet, this situation is not worth $1K to me. So I don't upgrade. But I also don't run around the internet/playground, shouting how "new phones have cooties!!!" (ie, "TBCs are poopypants!!!")

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansemerick

I think the response is usually that tech gets cheaper over time as new things come out.

This just isn't true at all.

For example, GPUs have gotten vastly more expensive over the years, and that's not even considering inflation (which would make the number multiples higher, accounting for inflation).

Again, it just goes back to ignorance. "I don't know what a TBC is, but I think it should cost ___ (arbitrary number, aka pulled-from-butt number).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

With TBCs they weren’t really mass produced. There really aren’t many now. There are only certain ones that are made for consumer analog formats. Then the world forgot about analog and the 08/09 recession made chip manufacturers stop making the right chips and that lead to things like the black AVT 8710s. We are trying to get gear but we are 20 years late to the show. I can see why it is expensive.

Correct.

- The 00s were the era of converting video.
- Some people chose to do it badly, so the 10s were the era of redoing projects.
- The 20s is people that didn't get the memo of prior decades, and suddenly realizing that their tapes are starting to have problems. Lots of problems. They waited too long, and are now paying the procrastinator tax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansemerick

it's a niche market, but I imagine there is still a big enough market out there to create something the same or better than those and sell it to that niche..

No.

New gear costs far more than people seem to realize.

There is enough extant gear to keep prices low. Yes, that means finding a VCR for "only" $500-2000, or a TBC for $1500-2500, is quite cheap, compared to what a new item would cost. Even DIY projects tend to run $500+, and still be limited, and iffy in quality. That RetroTINK is an insane price for a capture card, when you consider that excellent capture cards can be had for under $200. How well do you think a TBC would fair? Also triple+ the going rate? Probably so.

What always amused me is this:
- Do people really not think that I (and others) haven't looked into creating new gear? And repeatedly so, every few years?
- Do people not imagine that I've been approached, multiple times, with the wishful idea to "make more" of VCRs, TBCs, or capture cards? Because I have, and more times that I can now remember.

I wasn't dismissive of any of them, and was quite willing to be part of whatever might be possible. But every time, reality set in pretty quickly, both in terms of the technical challenges, the time needed, and the financial backing that would be needed to achieve it.

Most of the "idea people" have zero knowledge or experience in video, or any understanding of the video gear needed for quality conversion. Most importantly, not knowing the challenges posed by tapes, nor how to handle those errors successfully. Being an EE/whatever isn't enough, skills don't translate that easily. A lot of them are just bored grad students, and they ghost (bugger off) after summer vacation or spring break is over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

You can see everything that was analog start to transition towards digital. The TVs went to hybrid analog/digital and VCRs started were made more cheaply. I don’t think it would make sense financially for someone to make gear that was better than gear that was made back then. Those guys had basically unlimited budgets. If they were going to do that they probably would have already. That would be cool if there was enough financial incentive but I don’t think there is.

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansemerick

With FPGA a lot is possible.

No, it's really not. FPGA can do some amazing things, but an FPGA chip may as well be a potato chip when it comes to other things. FPGA is vastly overstated by the "I wants to makes a new cheap TBC!" crowd. It always reminds me of the 90s movie Under Siege, and the ridiculous line "a gigabyte of RAM should do the trick".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

If it was good for VHS then I would expect it to be marketed specifically for VHS and to places that do actual archive work to be considering it instead of YouTube people.

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansemerick

I'm not sure what you mean by "YouTube people."

Youtube is an amazing place, but it also represents the general population. It's a "public square" where you can meet rocket scientists (literally), and you find the more ignorant people that exist (mouth breathers, knuckle draggers). In other words, it's the general population. And the only thing to set them apart is production quality. But sometimes you get some of the smartest people who can't edit video, and total ignoramuses that have mastered Premiere/etc. (I always wonder: How do dumb people get so good at editing? If only they'd put that level of study into educating themselves on the BS they're spouting!)

Quite a few "slick videos" are complete bunk (Linus Tech Tips comes to mind, when discussing analog video). While some shoddy videos have excellent accuracy.

[NJRoadfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

If it was good for VHS then I would expect it to be marketed specifically for VHS and to places that do actual archive work to be considering it instead of YouTube people. Still good thread and it’s interesting hearing NJroadfan’s take on this because he is the only person I have heard with a lot of experience that is looking into the Retrotink.

I don't plan on buying one anytime soon. Mostly because I don't have a TV to take advantage of it for it's primary use.

I'm actually surprised nobody has looked into cloning the AVT-8710. There is nothing special about it. Just some off the shelf Philips/NXP 71xx chips and a micro controller. An updated design that outputs SDI would be perfectly fine for most uses, but there likely isn't enough demand to bring such a product to market. Even with used examples of the AVT-8710 somehow fetching 4 figures.

The RetroTINK 4K's main expense comes from the Altera Cyclone V FPGA used (the just announced lower cost CE version's only difference is the lower end FPGA). The analog capture and HDMI I/O chips aren't that expensive.

[latreche34]

The cost to develope, test and manufacture such devices is always the deciding factor, We've seen failed attempts before, SingMai devices is a perfect example. I'm not optimistic that a stand alone capture device with TBC and digital out (SDI, USB3 ...) will be available. I can see the reason behind the retrotink team to make a hybrid device for both capturing analog tapes and retro video games to have a wider customer base, but sometimes multi purpose tools don't work as good as a one function tool.

The vhs-decode team could have used that effort to make something like this even if starting from RF, but instead they preferred the software way which could never be refind to work with every possible scenario of different VCRs and tapes. Hardware based proven to work rliably even in the 80's (Sony D1 machines 8bit uncompressed UYV), let alone now with fast processors.

[BarryTheCrab]

I believe SingMai was going along nicely and found new chips to restart the SM-1 production but the death of the company owner stopped everything.

[latreche34]

Not to derail the thread but I don't think he was selling them, we would have seen product reviews online, or if he was selling them bulk for a reseller we would have seen them available for sale via another company.

[RayNotes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

My other hobbies have been in the same ballpark as this price wise but this is the only one that the price is soo controversial to the general population.

My impression has been that at first sight, it would strike the layperson as odd to expend so much time, money, and effort to achieve results, that even if maximized, are lackluster relative to any modern motion picture media. Be that as it may, there are simply cases where a person needs the best possible copy of the original as they can get... and there's no way that will be cheap or easy.

And of course, the force multiplier for the controversy in this domain is that your principal devices are all used, very complex, and often have nuanced performance pros and cons. So let the festivities begin!

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayNotes

My impression has been that at first sight, it would strike the layperson as odd to expend so much time, money, and effort to achieve results, that even if maximized, are lackluster relative to any modern motion picture media. Be that as it may, there are simply cases where a person needs the best possible copy of the original as they can get... and there's no way that will be cheap or easy.

And of course, the force multiplier for the controversy in this domain is that your principal devices are all used, very complex, and often have nuanced performance pros and cons. So let the festivities begin!

How "lay" is the layperson?

- Simply a new topic for them?
- The uneducated redneck Walmart type?
- The kid who still uses financially immature terms like "gas money" or "beer money"?

In general, huge difference.

- The newbie learns.
- The uneducated dipstick says "I don't need none of that stupid crap"
- The kid says "wah, it costs money!"

Gary34 was talking about drones. I know nothing about drones. I've read, in passing, where lots of drones are cheap junk, and you get what you pay for. Nothing new there, not a shock to me. I'd imagine some crappy ones are a sub-$100, budget-minded are high $100s, and a good one may be $1K+ even to $10K+ (...and I just checked Google quickly, seems accurate)

I have no need for drones. But if I wanted a picture of my house from the sky, how dumb would I be to whine online that drones don't cost $20 at the thrift store? Or that it takes money and learning how to use them?

In terms of quality, you can easily take a cheap camera, strap it to a drone, and take terrible photos.

And yet, I never see anybody do that. Nobody enters drone groups/forums/sub/etc, and starts to whine. No, they often want to dick-measure, lots of one-upsmanship going on. Mine is bigger, better, more expensive. Or the "bang for the buck" crowd, the ones using clever non-intended uses, though their overall quality/experience is still below quality/experience of others with better gear (ie, the ES10/15 for what we do here).

That's the comparison here.

[RayNotes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That's the comparison here.

You're right - the comparison is a bit of a category error. To me, the biggest distinction is drones are an emerging technology in a growing market with a very wide range of production choices being sold brand new. As such, market forces continue to drive the price/performance ratio towards lower cost/higher performance. There really isn't an analogue to that in this vintage video domain. Prices rise more or less out of scarcity. I'm not an economist though - just my opinion.

I spent $750ish on my drone setup - which was roughly the bare minimum for acquiring footage that could be intercut with professional cinematic work. I waited about 3 years for the price/performance point to reach that level. I'm sure I'll feel robbed in a few months. LOL!

[Bogilein]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Not to derail the thread but I don't think he was selling them, we would have seen product reviews online, or if he was selling them bulk for a reseller we would have seen them available for sale via another company.

Just a side note, because it has nothing to do with the original post.

As far as I can tell, Singmai was a one-man company. There was no finished appliance warehouse. The appliance was only assembled and tested or not after it had been ordered. The Altera chips were no longer available for the first version of the SM03 and the second version was twice as expensive as the first. Maybe there are about 5 devices that were delivered of the second version. But most probably that is also 4 too many.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I spent $750ish on my drone setup - which was roughly the bare minimum for acquiring footage that could be intercut with professional cinematic work. I waited about 3 years for the price/performance point to reach that level. I'm sure I'll feel robbed in a few months. LOL!

What did you get? My Mavic Pro was really easy to fly compared to a cheap drone. I shot some real estate videos and you can set way points and the flying is automatic the you just set your speed. A cheap drone is a headache and the video isn’t really stable like that. A mavic set to way point well be very stable. Also it was a range of like three miles if you are in the country which I did use that for a property listing out in the country. The battery last like 30 minutes too. Maybe you could try to just walk behind a cheap drone or drive behind so you could get a movie covering a whole property then piece together videos but it’s a lot easier to take 3 batteries and just fly a mavic. You could maybe try to stabilize a cheaper drones video in software some. With this thought people are willing to do filldrops, resume audio, use es15. It’s just different. The resale on those is way lower than what you pay because of it being a growing market. They are for most people just for fun where as this is more important.

[RayNotes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

What did you get?

My first purchase was the DJI Mini 3 Pro. I had that for a year then got the Mini 4 Pro because it could film on in a Log profile. It has a lot of capabilities similar to the Mavic (like it has the Mavic Air 2 sensor) just not as robust (smaller, lighter, slower, less options, etc.).

[Gary34]

Those are nice from what I am reading. I haven’t messed with any of that stuff in a while. I sold my Mavic and goggles for 600 a few years ago. Not really a bad price for it. It’s expected for that kinda stuff. It was fun while I was into the hobby though. A lot of people spend more on cigarettes and lotto tickets than I’ve spent on any hobby.

[RayNotes]

Yeah - the Mini Pros are useful for most applications. I actually have a bid for a shoot at Churchill Downs next week and they wanted to see a demo reel. I didn't have time to do a proper reel so I just downloaded clips from my YouTube channel. But there's a few shots with the drone in here. Other shots are from my Z Cam E2, Nikon D7000, and even a shot with my Google Pixel cell phone (LOL!).

https://youtu.be/oRfEoxAXqHM?si=G2JwEy09RyHUQ8Or

[latreche34]

It's amazing what drones can achieve now with small cameras that the movie industry spent hundereds of thousands of dollars back in the day to acheive them with helicopters, booms and expensive bulky rigs, The same goes for the smart gimbles. I've always wanted to get into drone shooting as a hobby but things in life always manage to get in the way.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

Just a side note, because it has nothing to do with the original post.

Always appreciate your input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

I'm actually surprised nobody has looked into cloning the AVT-8710. There is nothing special about it. Just some off the shelf Philips/NXP 71xx chips and a micro controller. An updated design that outputs SDI would be perfectly fine for most uses, but there likely isn't enough demand to bring such a product to market. Even with used examples of the AVT-8710 somehow fetching 4 figures.
The RetroTINK 4K's main expense comes from the Altera Cyclone V FPGA used (the just announced lower cost CE version's only difference is the lower end FPGA). The analog capture and HDMI I/O chips aren't that expensive.

Same, always appreciate your input.

It's not just the hardware, but the software on-chip. TBCs are not using chip defaults. SD video is not HD video, and the chips needed for SD analog TBCs (and for use with consumer videotape formats) simply are not fabbed anymore. What does exist is not good enough. There have been attempts, but then chips are the problem. You'd have to stockpile discontinued chips (once actually located), and that's not cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

The cost to develope, test and manufacture such devices is always the deciding factor, We've seen failed attempts before, SingMai devices is a perfect example. I'm not optimistic that a stand alone capture device with TBC and digital out (SDI, USB3 ...) will be available. I can see the reason behind the retrotink team to make a hybrid device for both capturing analog tapes and retro video games to have a wider customer base, but sometimes multi purpose tools don't work as good as a one function tool.

All correct.

Quote:

The vhs-decode team could have used that effort to make something like this even if starting from RF, but instead they preferred the software way which could never be refind to work with every possible scenario of different VCRs and tapes. Hardware based proven to work rliably even in the 80's (Sony D1 machines 8bit uncompressed UYV), let alone now with fast processors.

And for that reason, the whole project has always struck me as daft. Why not focus on formats that didn't already have the excellent playback options of VHS format? Like Betamax, for example. (This is rhetorical. It's mostly a bunch of 20-somethings that want to complain about spending money, so instead they'll waste countless hours to pointlessly reinvent the VHS wheel. I never see 30s/40s/50s/etc desiring to waste time they don't have. Family, job, household, health, etc. Businesses correctly see the negative productivity and zero ROI.) It's a waste of talent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

I believe SingMai was going along nicely and found new chips to restart the SM-1 production but the death of the company owner stopped everything.

I'm not sure that he ever did find new chips, at least not with certainty. This is not any easy endeavor, and he hit the roadblocks I would expect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayNotes

To me, the biggest distinction is drones are an emerging technology in a growing market with a very wide range of production choices being sold brand new. As such, market forces continue to drive the price/performance ratio towards lower cost/higher performance. There really isn't an analogue to that in this vintage video domain. Prices rise more or less out of scarcity. I'm not an economist though - just my opinion.

I can't agree, for a simple reason: bitcoin. A common "reason" (excuse?) for people buying it is so-called scarcity. At least a TBC has a purpose, a function. GPUs are not too different from TBCs, and people often literally queue up to buy those. Yes, both are tools with costs, with scarcity. But people cry about GPUs because they want one, yet cry about TBCs because they do not. Again, it's about (often misplaced) priorities, and how a certain segment of our society gets a dopamine hit from complaining online on (anti-)social media. There's also not really anything "emerging" about drones, GPUs, nor TBCs. It's all decade+ old stuff now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayNotes

A lot of people spend more on cigarettes and lotto tickets than I’ve spent on any hobby.

I know too many of these. They can't help themselves. I'd add that these same people also cannot stop eating junk and fast food. Vices, bad priorities in life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayNotes

Nikon D7000,

Wow, are you still using that? I find early Nikon video is too limiting. I bought Z II several years ago, but never used it as intended, lost my muse.

Quote:

https://youtu.be/oRfEoxAXqHM?si=G2JwEy09RyHUQ8Or

Nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

It's amazing what drones can achieve now with small cameras that the movie industry spent hundereds of thousands of dollars back in the day to acheive them with helicopters, booms and expensive bulky rigs, The same goes for the smart gimbles. I've always wanted to get into drone shooting as a hobby but things in life always manage to get in the way.

Agree, and I'm with you. (These guys don't know it yet, but they just volunteered to teach me about drones. )