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  #1  
05-07-2024, 11:55 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Hi, I bought few months ago Elgato Video Capture usb grabber, and digitized around 60-80 tapes so far. And I really like it, but on two tapes I noticed audio went out of sync, not instantly but after like 20-30 minutes. On one tape it cames back to sync after like 10 min. but on other one is out of sync from 40 min. of tape till the end. Any idea whats going on there ? I play video in elgate software on that specific time but audio is good, so it must be when video is converting to my laptop or something.

I am converting on Windows OS, with i5 8gen laptop with 16GB RAM. I didn't try passthrough with ES10 but I don't think it would make any difference cause I think it's something with elgato not VCR or anything else, but I could be wrong.

-- merged --

Just to add:

When playing video in VLC player it de-sync, and in other players too. When I play it in elgato on that exact place when it de-sync audio is normal but it's not capturing at that time only viewing. So my only suspect is elgato when it's doing mixdown of final file, that something went wrong.

I am doing re-capturing now without ES-10 and will see how it goes. And after that I will test with ES-10.

Forgot to mention VCR is clean no dirty head or audio head.
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  #2  
05-08-2024, 01:29 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Accidental off-topic posts removed.

Typical problem here
- lack of TBCs causes audio to drift out of sync; some form of TBC is required, it's not optional
- Elgato cards are known as "Elcrapo" for a reason -- they're terrible quality

ES10 is a very minimalist form of TBC(ish). Combined with better capture cards, it can suffice. Or not. But better than nothing at all, which is the case here.

Image quality also massively improves with ES10/15 and another card. You're literally using a "do not do this!" method right now.

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  #3  
05-08-2024, 01:30 AM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Accidental off-topic posts removed.

Typical problem here
- lack of TBCs causes audio to drift out of sync; some form of TBC is required, it's not optional
- Elgato cards are known as "Elcrapo" for a reason -- they're terrible quality

ES10 is a very minimalist form of TBC(ish). Combined with better capture cards, it can suffice. Or not. But better than nothing at all, which is the case here.

Image quality also massively improves with ES10/15 and another card. You're literally using a "do not do this!" method right now.
As I know my JVC HR-S7960 have very good TBC and it's turned On.

I saw that a lot of youtubers that are doing capturing are using like 20 elgato usb video grabber for capturing. Non of them said it's garbage...
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  #4  
05-08-2024, 01:33 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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A lot of Youtubers also believe the earth is flat, the moon landing was faked, Trump won, etc. Youtube is the general population, and the general population contains a large % of complete morons.

People that like Elgato almost always have no basis for comparison (to better cards), and the main importance to them was to have a cheap (Chinese) capture card that cost less than a cheeseburger.

The JVC VCR contains a line TBC, not frame. Line does not prevent dropped frames. The ES10 is a strong+crippled line TBC(ish) paired with a non-TBC frame sync. That unique combo will bake in errors in a semi-timed way, to often (not always) avoid audio sync and dropped frames. But noting it's a not transparent like actual TBCs, you do lose some visual quality.

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  #5  
05-08-2024, 01:36 AM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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haha good point there.

I didn't have any other problems until this caputuring with it, all other ~60 tapes that I captured were without any problems. And most of them I captured without ES-10, I didn't need it cause they were not in bad shape.

So if I understand you correctly I should re-capture that tape with ES-10 and see how it goes ?
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  #6  
05-08-2024, 01:40 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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If you have access to an ES10 right now, try it.

But a better capture card is still suggested. You lost a lot of quality in those 60-80 tape conversations. And you're probably overlooking a lot of issues from spot checking as you're doing.

Just don't toss the tapes, keep them for when you want better.

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  #7  
05-08-2024, 01:45 AM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
If you have access to an ES10 right now, try it.

But a better capture card is still suggested. You lost a lot of quality in those 60-80 tape conversations. And you're probably overlooking a lot of issues from spot checking as you're doing.

Just don't toss the tapes, keep them for when you want better.
Ofc I have it, and did fresh recap on PSU and motherboard on it. It works like a charm.

I'll try it with ES-10 when I get home from work.

I just got this elgato so I'm going to stick with it for some time now until I repay vcr and grabber with digitizing.

All tapes stay on my shelf, there are some good stuff on them that don't exist on youtube yet.
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  #8  
05-08-2024, 01:52 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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No need for "ofc", I often forget who has what.

What stuff?
Are you a toon or TV show collector?
We may have already chatted, but I forget, too sidetracked lately for anything fun.

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  #9  
05-08-2024, 01:58 AM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
No need for "ofc", I often forget who has what.

What stuff?
Are you a toon or TV show collector?
We may have already chatted, but I forget, too sidetracked lately for anything fun.
I have some YoMTV Rap stuff rare videos, BlackMusic MCM, some stuff recorded from 90s live concert that my friends and I organized like DJ Premier in Croatia here in my country, Masta Ace in Croatia for the first time. I also captured some local synch cartoons and other stuff.

We did chat about what vcr to get but we didn't chat about what tapes I have.

-- merged --

Should I turn On video stabilization while ES-10 is connected or should I turn it off, don't know if it will make any difference...
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  #10  
05-08-2024, 11:54 AM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
Should I turn On video stabilization while ES-10 is connected or should I turn it off, don't know if it will make any difference...
VCR TBC off --> DMR-ES10 --> capture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
As I know my JVC HR-S7960 have very good TBC and it's turned On.
You have a 7960, but you're using an Elgato to capture?? That is a bizarre combination. Great VCR, but one of the worst capture choices. Would you be interested in the highest quality digitzation that your VCR can give you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I saw that a lot of youtubers that are doing capturing are using like 20 elgato usb video grabber for capturing. Non of them said it's garbage...
None of the ElgatoTubers are doing anything involving quality. They are making videos, to get views, to get paid. You get the most views by saying, "L@@K!!1! SuPeR E-Z, I was SHOCKED!1!! $3 on AMAZON!1one!!" That's why none of them ever discuss comparisons with better capture equipment -- They don't know, and they don't care. You watched their videos, YouTube registered your views, the ElgatoTubers get paid, and that's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I didn't have any other problems until this caputuring with it, all other ~60 tapes that I captured were without any problems.
Depends on your definition of "problems." Some would say capturing with an Elgato device means 100% of the captures have problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You lost a lot of quality in those 60-80 tape conversations. And you're probably overlooking a lot of issues from spot checking as you're doing.
If you want to get the best quality capture out of your (expensive?) 7960, here are 2 examples of major problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I just got this elgato so I'm going to stick with it for some time now
Are you still in the return window to send it back and get a refund?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I really like it
Compared to what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I didn't try passthrough with ES10 but I don't think it would make any difference cause I think it's something with elgato not VCR or anything else, but I could be wrong.
Why not try the ES10 and then know for sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
So my only suspect is elgato
Agreed. Problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I am doing re-capturing now without ES-10 and will see how it goes. And after that I will test with ES-10.
Regardless, a better capture device is highly recommended. No one is being mean here, but trying to help you. Lots of people get tricked into buying Elgato junk, and then find out afterward. Some make a logical choice to upgrade for proper quality, some don't.

recommended vcr+line tbc ---(Y/C)--> recommended frame tbc or "tbc-ish" ---(Y/C)--> capture
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  #11  
05-08-2024, 12:00 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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I get it elgato is garbage I know that no one is mean here and just trying to help me

But for now until I repay it and VCR it would serve a purpose. After repay I will get some new capturing device. What do you recommand, and are they expensive I give 100 euros for this elgato, and thats a lot for me plus 400 euros for vcr. Don't know if I can still return this elgato I bought it from amazon.

I just did re-capture with ES-10 and there is still out of sync audio maybe less noticable than without ES-10 but it's still there, and not always but on some parts and then it returns to sync again...Now I have to adjust sound manually in Vegas...

Last edited by Thermaltake; 05-08-2024 at 12:36 PM.
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  #12  
05-08-2024, 12:35 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaltake View Post
I get it elgato is garbage. But for now until I repay it and VCR it would serve a purpose. After repay I will get some new capturing device. What do you recommand, and are they expensive I give 100 euros for this elgato, and thats a lot for me plus 400 euros for vcr. Don't know if I can still return this elgato I bought it from amazon.
100??!!! I thought they were ~20. You can check your Amazon order info and it will show the Elgato purchase and show you the return info. If you have even 1 day remaining to return it, I'd pack it up and get it out immediately to be refunded.

My recommendation is one of the Pinnacle or ATI USB devices which lordsmurf has for sale. I see there is a PAL version of the Pinnacle USB, and maybe the ATI USB is multi-format. He and others can best advise you on that.

The main concerns for you right now are the life of your tapes and the time being spent on this. It's best to minimize the number of times you play each tape, so doing multiple re-captures while chasing down problems is not ideal. While doing that, you're also wasting your time. And if you're using something like an Elgato, then you're also getting a low-quality digital capture. It's a bad combination.

Instead, you can either get the Elgato refunded, or sell it locally online, or on eBay, etc. Hopefully it could be sold for ~75, so you only lose 25. Save money as needed until you can purchase a proper capture device like those for sale from lordsmurf, which are priced around 150-175. Then you can start from the beginning and capture every tape with your new workflow. You'll also be able to compare afterward and visually see the quality improvement from a better capture device.

In this case, it's best to pause the project, make the adjustments, and then continue.

recommended vcr+line tbc ---(Y/C)--> recommended frame tbc or "tbc-ish" ---(Y/C)--> capture
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  #13  
05-08-2024, 12:44 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Yeah it was 100 euros.

I saw his pinnacle USB what model is that ? And why is there PAL and NTSC version ? So If I have NTSC tape my vcr supports NTSC tapes, will I be able to record it ?

All other tapes that were recorded via elgato didn't have any stutter, audio was ok on all of them. Ok I get it they can be recorded in way better quality and all that. I know elgato captures in low bitrate and their de-interlacing is very bad.

Does Pinnacle USB have some kind of software for recording like elgato have or you must use OBS or some other ?
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  #14  
05-08-2024, 03:06 PM
vwestlife vwestlife is offline
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You will get a tremendous improvement in quality if you immediately delete the junk software that the Elgato comes with, and instead use OBS to capture to a lossless format. Elgato's software has the worst de-interlacing and compression artifacts I've ever seen, and it's a shame that those "professionals" on YouTube are ruining so many people's videos by using it.

But it will still be hamstrung by the cheap analog-to-digital converter chip it uses, and the lack of a TBC (although in this case it's offset by your VCR having one built-in).
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  #15  
05-08-2024, 03:34 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwestlife View Post
You will get a tremendous improvement in quality if you immediately delete the junk software that the Elgato comes with, and instead use OBS to capture to a lossless format. Elgato's software has the worst de-interlacing and compression artifacts I've ever seen, and it's a shame that those "professionals" on YouTube are ruining so many people's videos by using it.

But it will still be hamstrung by the cheap analog-to-digital converter chip it uses, and the lack of a TBC (although in this case it's offset by your VCR having one built-in).
I get it. But their software is very easy to use and at the end of the capture trim and export. But I noticed with elgato you need to delete it's audio source from device manager to get it worked.
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  #16  
05-08-2024, 03:35 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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OBS may have improved recently to include analog capture capability but it's still a swiss knife tool like NLE, not specialized in analog capture, Vdub or at least AmarecTV are the most know software for this task.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #17  
05-08-2024, 07:36 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VWestlife
You will get a tremendous improvement in quality if you immediately delete the junk software that the Elgato comes with
Don't delete the driver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWestlife
use OBS to capture to a lossless format.
And how is one to do that?

-- merged --

I have a Pinnacle 710-USB from Lordsmurf and it has stopped working on later versions of Win 10, and Win 11. Beware. I'd insist on a "return" option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWestlife
But it will still be hamstrung by the cheap analog-to-digital converter chip it uses, and the lack of a TBC
If you are implying that the Elgato doesn't have a TBC, you are probably right. However, nor do any of the other consumer digitisers that I am aware of.

You appear to fail to understand that the reason the video is much more stable when recording to a DVD recorder is because it is acting as the TBC (your YT on the Elgato also refers). GotMemories proves that in one of his videos. He runs a wobbly tape, which LegacyBox returned as virtually unwatchable, through an ES-35V (from a "crappy" VCR, I might add) and the picture was rock-steady. So it's not the Elgato causing the wobbling.
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  #18  
05-08-2024, 11:49 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Tnx for the info. Any suggested Pinnacle to bought then ?

Is Pinnacle Dazzle DVD Recorder HD ok ?

-- merged --

forgot to mention and that it works with virtualdub, because I see some pinnacle doesn't for some reason.

I don't want to buy some questionable compatibility device with modern today PCs.

-- merged --

I was reading that Pinnacle dazzle dvc100/101 are good capturing devices. I read also that they have some kind of issues on Win 10, but people manage to get it work as it should. I just can't find those anywhere except in US, that would cost me a lot. But I found this Pinnacle Dazzle DVD Recorder HD on amazon for 64 euros, don't know if it use the same chip inside as dvc 100,101 and 107.

P.S
I tried elgato with virtualdub and it lag alot, I tried OBS studio and when adding capturing device I got BSOD
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  #19  
05-09-2024, 02:37 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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No, Dazzle cards are junk. Where did you read that it was good?

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  #20  
05-09-2024, 03:32 PM
Thermaltake Thermaltake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
No, Dazzle cards are junk. Where did you read that it was good?
On youtube there is guy named ConsumerDV and video is called Which Pinnacle Dazzle?
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