BVP-4 and other methods of sharpening VHS/SVHS

[TCMullet]

I collected (recorded) way too many VHS/SVHS tapes from 1986 to 2002, over 500! All has been in storage since then. In 2020, I pulled a couple decks out AND my rarely used BVP-4 (non-plus). As I recall, I think I never felt the BVP-4 was all that good, so I didn't use it much. I pulled it out to verify it worked (which it did) with the intent of boxing and sealing for later sale and shipping. It's still sealed and hopefully still working. (It's very hard to get it all to fit in the original box, but I did. Maybe the foam is not as spongy as it was in 199x.) (I don't need to sell it other than the general need to free up storage space. I don't have much money to spend on a senior low income, but I do have time to start capturing.)

I've finally embarked on serious capture/restoration of the items I wish to preserve. While I have a half dozen VHS consumer decks originally bought for a small duplication suite, which now only work marginally, my SVHS decks, JVC SR-V101 and Panasonic AG-1970, each have problems. However, I discovered that my 1970s big problem was that I had never correctly cleaned the heads all those years ago. Recent internet research showed me how to do so correctly and I'm rather pleased at how well this 1970 works, especially if I let it warm up for awhile.

My capture only has composite input (no S-video), but I've learned online that my card is new enough that composite color processing should be adequate. (So I'm no longer addicted to ensuring everything is S-video throughout the path.)

My problem is that I'm rather disappointed in how UN-sharp the images are, even with stuff I shot directly to S-VHS from a Hi-8 camcorder. (Yes, I realize I'm biased due to a decade of being spoiled by HD TV.) I was not planning to break my seal on the BVP-4 before attempting to sell it, but after reading some of the 100+ threads here (sorry, but I didn't read them all), I begin to think maybe I should break it open and set it up. I ONLY want to enhance resolution. I don't think I need any of the other controls on it; proc amp changes I can easily do with AviSynth in postproduction.

I've long felt I should NEVER use the 1970's sharpness control but only output with it set to "edit". But I'm open to all options based on you all's wisdom. Should I sharpen with BVP-4? VCR's sharpness? One of many flavors of AVISynth sharpeners (all of which I'm disappointed in so far)?

Some of the prior discussions on the BVP-4 are pretty old, so I thought it best NOT to piggyback on one of those threads. I'd have to invest in some more good cabling to use the BVP-4, but am willing IF the BVP-4 is a good option. As I recall the BVP-4's settings are not precisely identifiable and therefore not precisely repeatable (a tolerable disappointment). I am spoiled by AVISynth's repeatability.

I hear some of you guys saying the enhancement isn't real. Yet the original docs refer to amplifying high frequency video that was rolled off but still real even though buried. Either way, I realize boosting those highs will also boost noise, which may or may not be acceptable. Nowadays, I'm not worried about disk space like we were in 2000, so noise may be more acceptable on the bit-bloat front.

TIA!

[TCMullet]

Though I started capturing in earnest in April, the blurriness came to a head when I found a tape I had mastered of highlights of 1996 Olympics originally recorded off cable TV and mostly to S-VHS SP. I had mastered it to S-VHS LP. (You can ask how I did that if you wish.) I was sorely disappointed how dull (non-sharp) it all is. (I THOUGHT it looked a lot sharper when I last viewed it in 2012 or so.) It looks duller than 1st gen tapes I've made on VHS-EP and captured successfully. Not noisy really, just dull, non-sharp edges everywhere.

[TCMullet]

Sorry my initial post was so verbose. I thought I should give the full history and context, but as a result, the question may have gone unnoticed, being buried deep within it. (Plus I've discovered that, strangely, I cannot edit my own posts under most circumstances.)

Should I include the BVP-4 in my chain so that I can utilize it's "resolution contour" to increase the sharpness? OR should I use the 1970 VCR's sharpness control (set all the way up)? OR should I rely solely on one of the many flavors of AVISynth sharpeners (all of which I'm disappointed in so far)? And if the latter, any recommendations of which one? (I was under the impression that doing it in software would be the penultimate, as software "can do anything". But maybe not.)

[traal]

Post a lossless clip. Maybe there's something wrong with your equipment or settings. It shouldn't be immediately obvious that it's tape and not DVD.

[lordsmurf]

Unsharp = composite (with few exceptions). Use s-video.

BVP4 and BVP4+ has issues with clean realignment of chroma+luma. This was not noticed in the analog era, and even I missed it in much of the 2000s. But in the digital HD era (starting late 2000s), it's obvious now.

Some units can have the pots screwed with (literally, turn screwdrivers), but it's not universal.

The BVP4 really was more of a "fan made" type item than anything with mass production. The nichiest of niche. All for $800+ MSRP (now worth half at best, if not less). Unlike some gear, it has not aged well quality-wise (referring to visual output quality).

It still has lots of value for video artists (especially glitch artists), but little to none for archiving without added noise/artifacts. We just didn't know then what we all know now.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I've long felt I should NEVER use the 1970's sharpness control but only output with it set to "edit".

Edit bypasses all filters on the Pannasonic 1980s and I’m assuming the 1970s. The Nor setting is recommended for playback. Edit on the 1980s is meant to bypass all filters for connecting two Pannasonic 1980 VCRs together.

Quote:

OR should I use the 1970 VCR's sharpness control (set all the way up)? OR should I rely solely on one of the many flavors of AVISynth sharpeners (all of which I'm disappointed in so far)?

Here’s some links on that.
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-playback.html
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...0-sharpen.html
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ic-AG-1980-VCR

The sharpness slider deals with the signal instead of the digitized picture so it can add detail to the picture that you can’t get once it’s digitized. It also adds noise then your noise reduction in post destroys some of your fine detail. The recommendations I see is to middle notch it but I still find myself wanting to push it further to the right. The answer with basically everything is a mix of software and hardware is best. One isn’t necessarily better than the other they are just different. Maxing out anything by default is a bad idea. Everything is custom.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I've long felt I should NEVER use the 1970's sharpness control but only output with it set to "edit".

Edit bypasses all filters on the Pannasonic 1980s and I’m assuming the 1970s. The Nor setting is recommended for playback. Edit on the 1980s is meant to bypass all filters for connecting two Pannasonic 1980 VCRs together.

Quote:

OR should I use the 1970 VCR's sharpness control (set all the way up)? OR should I rely solely on one of the many flavors of AVISynth sharpeners (all of which I'm disappointed in so far)?

Here’s some links on that.
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-playback.html
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...0-sharpen.html
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ic-AG-1980-VCR

The sharpness slider deals with the signal instead of the digitized picture so it can add detail to the picture that you can’t get once it’s digitized. It also adds noise then your noise reduction in post destroys some of your fine detail. The recommendations I see is to middle notch it but I still find myself wanting to push it further to the right. The answer with basically everything is a mix of software and hardware is best. One isn’t necessarily better than the other they are just different. Maxing out anything by default is a bad idea. Everything is custom.

[traal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

The sharpness slider deals with the signal instead of the digitized picture so it can add detail to the picture that you can’t get once it’s digitized.

Sanlyn's guide says:

Quote:

Don't sharpen VHS: all you'll do is sharpen noise.

So I wonder if the slider on the VCR does something different than the slider in the capture card settings.

[Gary34]

With the sharpening slider on the Panasonic adds to the high frequency part of the signal. You can see it add to the borders around objects and also the numbers at the bottom of the screen. Atleast i can on my 1st gen tapes. If a capture card sharpens post digitizing I can’t see it being able to do that because it’s not there to add at that point. I guess I could mess with the sharpness on my capture card and see. I wonder if a capture card makes any changes pre digitizing.

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Edit bypasses all filters on the Panasonic 1980s and I’m assuming the 1970s. The Norm setting is recommended for playback. Edit on the 1980s is meant to bypass all filters for connecting two Panasonic 1980 VCRs together.

Thanks for the links, Gary. Have read them all, but there's confusing info, but some helpful. I've not seen a 1980, having only had 2 1970s. Your remark seems contradictory. I'll paraphrase you. "The Norm setting (where the sharpness slider IS active) is recommended for playback. Edit mode bypasses all filters so that playback is the purest signal for recording on another VCR." But isn't "purest signal" ALSO what we want when playing back into SOME OTHER device such as video capture?? As best I can tell, "playback" always meant playing purely to watch the show (no subsequent recording or processing). But I'm never merely watching; I'm always dubbing or capturing or something. Don't I always want the purest signal, implying leave it in "edit" all the time? I think we'd all say Yes. However, there are (obviously) other considerations, which we are now discussing.

Quote:

The sharpness slider deals with the signal instead of the digitized picture so it can add detail to the picture that you can’t get once it’s digitized. It also adds noise, then your noise reduction in post destroys some of your fine detail. The recommendations I see is to middle notch it but I still find myself wanting to push it further to the right. The answer with basically everything is a mix of software and hardware is best. One isn’t necessarily better than the other they are just different. Maxing out anything by default is a bad idea. Everything is custom.

I don't see why you would "middle notch" it ever (Edit Off which equals "Norm"); middle notch would simply mean NO softening and NO sharpening, i.e., it's doing NOTHING. Why would you do that when the purpose of "edit off" ("norm") is so that you CAN adjust the sharpening?

Your first sentence was the best. "so it can add detail that you can't get once it's digitized". But that happens only if you slide the control something to the RIGHT of the notch which is neutral. Again, why do you "middle notch" when middle is totally neutral??

But based on your "it can add detail that you can't get once it's digitized", I think I should switch edit off and push slider toward "sharp". The question is how far? Some have said all the way is always too far. Could it be that we move it as much as possible without increasing noise objectionably? I think I'd rather have detail plus noise, then worry about de-noising in post. I find it VERY hard to decide how far to move it toward "sharp"! There's also the problem of logging how far. Perhaps 50% to the right, or 60%, or whatever we're saying. Yet there are no detents there, so if I try to repeat the capture, I can never repeat the setting exactly (unless it's all the way to the right).

I do appreciate everyone's input!

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

Sanlyn's guide says: Don't sharpen VHS: all you'll do is sharpen noise.

So I wonder if the slider on the VCR does something different than the slider in the capture card settings.

1. My capture has sharpness greyed out, so not relevant to me.
2. Sanlyn's guide, while it says it's talking about sharpen at capture, it also doesn't say anything more about it. Therefore, I'm inclined to disregard, when everyone else is saying (at least in VCR context) that sharpen includes detail otherwise lost. I am going to try sharpen on my AG-1970.

Hey, in case I am able to acquire a working 1980, does anyone think the sharpen slider is any different between the 2 models? But I especially want to know why ANYONE thinks leaving sharpness on the detent (which is neutral) has ANY advantage to totally bypassing it all with "edit".

[Gary34]

Quote:

Edit mode bypasses all filters so that playback is the purest signal for recording on another VCR."

You don’t want to bypass your noise reduction and chroma filters. It also bypasses your sharpness slider.

Quote:

But I especially want to know why ANYONE thinks leaving sharpness on the detent (which is neutral) has ANY advantage to totally bypassing it all with "edit".

The middle notch is not neutral. I just put my Pannasonic on the middle notch then I turned my 1980 from not to edit and you can see it get less sharp. Then I turned my slider all the way down and switched it from NOR to edit and you can see it get sharper. That’s because edit is neutral. The slider in the middle is sharpened.

Here’s the link to Tgrant’s website where he talks about the EDIT NOR DETAIL switch.
https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/in...t-your-new-vcr

Quote:

I think I should switch edit off and push slider toward "sharp". The question is how far?

I’m trying to figure that out myself. Those kinds of decisions are the art part of this. We chose to do it ourselves and not hire an artist so now we have to learn to paint.

I don’t think anyone can tell anyone that answer for your tape for your hardware blindly but from what I’ve heard less is more with sharpening and you don’t want to overdue it. I was overdoing it like two weeks ago then LS told me that’s way too much by default. He has to sharpen a lot in hardware sometimes but it’s when the benefits of sharpening outweigh the negatives. So I stopped and looked into it and now I’m trying to not overdue it. Look for hallowing.

Quote:

Sanlyn's guide says: Don't sharpen VHS: all you'll do is sharpen noise.

I believe he’s talking about sharpening with a capture card.
I’ve also read Sanlyn saying to middle notch the 1980.

[Gary34]

I wonder how the detail setting looks on SVHS.

https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/in...c-ag-1980-faqs

[Gary34]

Quote:

My capture only has composite input (no S-video), but I've learned online that my card is new enough that composite color processing should be adequate. (So I'm no longer addicted to ensuring everything is S-video throughout the path.)

That’s your main issue. Going to S-video would be a lot better than trying to sharpen a composite signal.

[TCMullet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

That’s your main issue. Going to S-video would be a lot better than trying to sharpen a composite signal.

I've had this HD capture device since 2012 and I've always known that it's inputs did not include S-video. (It has HDMI, component and composite.) I bought a similar model in 2015, also with that limitation. But I've not liked it for certain irrelevant reasons. I've determined I now have reason to set it up again. And as it turns out, they DO have an S-video adapter for it! (Has to be ordered separately.) As I'm just now getting into SVHS capture, I am ordering 2 of them.

However, for the life of me, I cannot find any of the S-video cables I've had in storage all these years (since about 2002). But even the "super quality" ones are so old, I may as well invest in NEW ones. Does anyone know where I can get a 6' (or so) known good quality s-video cable? (I should buy probably 3 so I have 1 for each capture plus a spare. The company sells a 10', but I'd rather not run the signal that far. And cheap s-video cables CAN go bad! But some of the "high end" ones (circa 1988) were too stiff which can cause other problems.

[Gary34]

Would you start a new thread about the capture cards?