Capture drops colour to black/white only?

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Confirm all VirtualDub settings with screencaps.

In main settings, DirectX OFF.

In capture mode, main window, lower right, 25fps, 48.kHz
Capture > Timing
Video > Capture filter, pin, Set custom format, Compression

I'm betting you'll see this issue with another capture card.
I think it's signal, maybe VirtualDub settings. You can always try VirtualDub2, or AmaRecTV, but odds are the same thing will happen.

Capture cards insist on compliant signals, PAL TVs allow "other" signals, so the "use TV first" test can give false results. Just be cognizant of that fact.

I can share those screencaps when next on capture machine, however, here's the steps I've already performed including using another capture card where the issue doesn't occur.

[latreche34]

If the capture card has electrolytic capacitors you can replace them and see if you can salvage it.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If the capture card has electrolytic capacitors you can replace them and see if you can salvage it.

@LordSmurf are capacitors likely given you know this unit? I've just reproduced the issue again today using a Hi8 camcorder. That is 3 separate playback devices I've used.

If it were caps would it not be more randomised? One every single occurrence it has happened within the first 20mins of capture.

[latreche34]

Some PCIe cards have 2 or 3 elect. caps that can go bad, But if you are using a USB capture device it is highly unlikely capacitors fault.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Some PCIe cards have 2 or 3 elect. caps that can go bad, But if you are using a USB capture device it is highly unlikely capacitors fault.

It is a Pinnacle USB device.

[Gary34]

Did it still lose chroma in composite? I saw you checked composite for flickering but I wasn’t sure if you checked it for chroma loss.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Did it still lose chroma in composite? I saw you checked composite for flickering but I wasn’t sure if you checked it for chroma loss.

I tried composite out via the same camcorder and instead of chroma loss I had around 50 dropped frames where it seemed to be flickering black screen instead of chroma loss. This was at several intervals across a 20min test.

I've just switched back to S-video and I've experienced the chroma loss within the first 3 minutes of my capture.

[latreche34]

If you're not getting the chroma loss on composite this could indicate a bad S-Video socket on the VCR or capture card, When you lose chroma try wiggling the cable connectors slightly at both ends of the cable.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I tried composite out via the same camcorder and instead of chroma loss I had around 50 dropped frames where it seemed to be flickering black screen instead of chroma loss. This was at several intervals across a 20min test

Do you have the right timing settings for that card?
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ure-stops.html

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Do you have the right timing settings for that card?
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ure-stops.html

Yes I've set up the timings exactly per that thread for the 710.

[Gary34]

Quote:

If you're not getting the chroma loss on composite this could indicate a bad S-Video socket on the VCR or capture card

That’s what I was thinking also but I guess composite isn’t an option.

[aramkolt]

Once the camcorder is warmed up and you go back and capture the early areas of the tape, do those same problem areas of the tape have consistent color then? It almost sounds like if you are saying that color is only initially inconsistent that you could have a faulty capacitor. It's not super uncommon for surface mount capacitors in particular to go "open" meaning the electrolyte has either dried up or leaked out to the point where it no longer functions reliably as a capacitor and the two contact points are essentially or at least intermittently open circuit. Capacitors pass AC current and block DC current, but they'll do neither if they are open - particularly, they won't pass a video signal. If the capacitor is intermittently open, if the chroma path goes through that capacitor, color output will stop. As for why composite does have color, it could be that the bad capacitor is only part of the S-Video circuit and not in the direct path of the composite output. If the S-Video connector was the issue, it should be reproducible with wiggling the connector during a color capture and that should reproduce the color dropout occasionally.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traderbam

@LordSmurf are capacitors likely given you know this unit?

Almost 0% chance.

Quote:

If it were caps would it not be more randomised? One every single occurrence it has happened within the first 20mins of capture.

Correct, caps would be random. What you have is repeatable. That suggests incoming source signal. What you're describing almost sounds like aggressive anti-copy, or false positive natural error. Some of those really nasty errors trip up everything (TBCs, VCRs/cameras, capture cards, etc). At this point, we'll need to know exhaustive info on your source tapes, exact models of cameras, etc. Everything, all details. This isn't a standard simple error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Some PCIe cards have 2 or 3 elect. caps that can go bad, But if you are using a USB capture device it is highly unlikely capacitors fault.

Correct, almost 0% chance, as these are almost caps-free. No typical electrolyte, just some tiny surface.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you're not getting the chroma loss on composite this could indicate a bad S-Video socket on the VCR or capture card, When you lose chroma try wiggling the cable connectors slightly at both ends of the cable.

I've tried this on the first capture of today and this didn't make any difference unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Once the camcorder is warmed up and you go back and capture the early areas of the tape, do those same problem areas of the tape have consistent color then? It almost sounds like if you are saying that color is only initially inconsistent that you could have a faulty capacitor. It's not super uncommon for surface mount capacitors in particular to go "open" meaning the electrolyte has either dried up or leaked out to the point where it no longer functions reliably as a capacitor and the two contact points are essentially or at least intermittently open circuit. Capacitors pass AC current and block DC current, but they'll do neither if they are open - particularly, they won't pass a video signal. If the capacitor is intermittently open, if the chroma path goes through that capacitor, color output will stop. As for why composite does have color, it could be that the bad capacitor is only part of the S-Video circuit and not in the direct path of the composite output. If the S-Video connector was the issue, it should be reproducible with wiggling the connector during a color capture and that should reproduce the color dropout occasionally.

Wiggling the connectors didn't make any difference unfortunately.

On my first capture of today the issue happened maybe 25 minutes in, a bit later than normal which again makes me think this is something related to a "get to temperature" type concern where the room temperature may be cooler this morning.

If I take exactly the same tape, rewind to start and recapture, the problematic section is captured without issue. This rules out any bad areas of tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Correct, caps would be random. What you have is repeatable. That suggests incoming source signal. What you're describing almost sounds like aggressive anti-copy, or false positive natural error. Some of those really nasty errors trip up everything (TBCs, VCRs/cameras, capture cards, etc). At this point, we'll need to know exhaustive info on your source tapes, exact models of cameras, etc. Everything, all details. This isn't a standard simple error.

Yes, it is repeatable on all my VCRs (Philips VR1000, Pana NH-HS860) and Sony DCR-725. The 8mm tapes have only been recorded once, and can be captured without issue on subsequent captures.

VHS tapes all capture fine on a subsequent capture too. These are a mix of tapes recorded from camcorder, and professional made 1st gen tapes.

I really don't think this is a tape issue as I can capture without any issue on subsequent captures.

Only thing I haven't tried is a different USB cable on the capture card but doubt that would be relevant.

[lordsmurf]

It may be tape storage that had magnetic fields, such as storing all the tapes above a huge speaker in an "entertainment system" (TV stand, piece of furniture, whatever you want to call it). Not too common, but has happened before. It would be cyclical errors.

If I had a list of 50 possible causes, the capture cards would be at bottom, based on all info so far. This is something else.

You may be entering a land of weird electrical errors, not mere video errors. I don't think so yet, but "my antenna are up" just so I don't miss anything possible in your descriptions.

Very, very weird situation here.

[Traderbam]

The tapes have been stored in a variety of locations. There is no pattern. I can capture fine on subsequent captures, and I can capture fine using exactly the same hardware but a different capture card.

Where do I go next for diagnostic suggestions?

[lordsmurf]

I just looked at your samples again. This has nothing to do with dropping color. What I see there is signal instability, a loss of v-hold. The question is why, how.

So other capture cards are perfect, at all times? And what are those other capture cards?

Perhaps drivers or OS are to blame. What I see there is almost identical to the problems reported with ATI 600 USB and clones using Win10, which is why those cards reject Win10/11. The card isn't at a fault, the OS is for making changes that made the hardware quit functioning properly.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I just looked at your samples again. This has nothing to do with dropping color. What I see there is signal instability, a loss of v-hold. The question is why, how.

So other capture cards are perfect, at all times? And what are those other capture cards?

Perhaps drivers or OS are to blame. What I see there is almost identical to the problems reported with ATI 600 USB and clones using Win10, which is why those cards reject Win10/11. The card isn't at a fault, the OS is for making changes that made the hardware quit functioning properly.

The samples I uploaded to this thread were related to the flickering issue - we can ignore those for now.

My other capture card is a USB-Live2 - I've captured maybe 50 hours worth of content without any instances of the chroma loss issue.

I've tried the capture on clean installs on 2 Windows 10 devices and the issue is reproducible on both. If the OS is at fault, is there anything I should be looking for that would verify that in Windows event logs? I'd expect that the issue would be more present if that were the case. I have ran captures for several hours and aside from the initial occurrence (usually 10-20mins in) everything works as expected.

[lordsmurf]

You may be the 6th confirmed case of a Win10 system not working with these cards, which is still a very small %, and is about 1 case per year. The Win10 issues really started in late 2019, and got worse until about 2022. It's been at peak bad since then, with no reports of "it used to work, and now it doesn't", just "it never worked right".

I'm not sure what may be in the event logs.

WinXP and Win7 are usually flawless, while Win10 is not. Each OS makes capturing video worse, as capturing was a 2000s task, long before Win10/11 existed. The tools of that 2000s era are what we need, to convert these much-older analog videotapes.

At this point, I guess you just use what works, you've hit a limit to increasing quality. Good VCRs with line TBC, frame TBC, just a lesser capture card due to OS choice. As far as "use what works" goes, it's not terrible. The biggest losses/gains are from the VCRs, TBCs, and lossless VirtualDub captures. The capture card gain/loss is a smaller % now. My only concern with that Live2 is instability and exposure values.

[Traderbam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

You may be the 6th confirmed case of a Win10 system not working with these cards, which is still a very small %, and is about 1 case per year. The Win10 issues really started in late 2019, and got worse until about 2022. It's been at peak bad since then, with no reports of "it used to work, and now it doesn't", just "it never worked right".

I'm not sure what may be in the event logs.

WinXP and Win7 are usually flawless, while Win10 is not. Each OS makes capturing video worse, as capturing was a 2000s task, long before Win10/11 existed. The tools of that 2000s era are what we need, to convert these much-older analog videotapes.

At this point, I guess you just use what works, you've hit a limit to increasing quality. Good VCRs with line TBC, frame TBC, just a lesser capture card due to OS choice. As far as "use what works" goes, it's not terrible. The biggest losses/gains are from the VCRs, TBCs, and lossless VirtualDub captures. The capture card gain/loss is a smaller % now. My only concern with that Live2 is instability and exposure values.

Have any of the previous noted Win10 issues had the same symptoms? I could understand it if it was more widespread but it's only within a specific time window. Very strange.

USB-Live2 is fine but I find the A/V sync is every so slightly out compared with the 710. Unless I am using the wrong settings. I use these settings - https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/att...s-settings-png

Is it worth checking USB cable? I'd expect device recognition errors from Windows if the cable was bad.

Only other factor is the Cyberlink UPS. I switch this off when not in use although it does remain powered on at the wall. Would there be any potential gotchas there?