Enable audio source with Pinnacle USB in Windows 10?

[bmichaelb]

I just purchased a Pinnacle USB-510 from Lordsmurf to replace my Hauppauge cards. I've installed the x64 drivers for Windows 7 (14.0.0.166 (64 bits)) in Windows 10, then went through the process of fixing the no video issue by finding the thread with the Crossbar Thing download, then figuring out that I needed to select Preview, because Overlay was all screwed up. But... I can't figure out how to get the audio going. One of the threads suggested using Graphedit, but I'm a bit confused as to how to configure it. Is there a guide showing what to select and how to configure?

Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

Did you enable Audio Preview in VirtualDub capture mode?

What are your current timing settings? Still default, or you made changes?

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Did you enable Audio Preview in VirtualDub capture mode?

What are your current timing settings? Still default, or you made changes?

I selected SVideo in the Crossbar Thing app, opened Virtualdub2 to set the levels in the histogram, then clicked the audio tab and selected Volume Meter. Nothing. I then read that enabling audio playback was supposed to fix it, but it didn't. Screencaps of my settings below.

Edit: Forgot to say it's the same in both Virtualdub2 x64, and Virtualdub 1.9.11 32-bit.

[lordsmurf]

And the Timing settings? (in capture mode, under Video menu)

The OS controls audio/sound, so sometimes Windows has channels muted. It's not just about VirtualDub settings for audio, but the OS as well. So go into the Windows sound menus, dig around. Lots of variables here, hence "dig around".

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

And the Timing settings? (in capture mode, under Video menu)

The OS controls audio/sound, so sometimes Windows has channels muted. It's not just about VirtualDub settings for audio, but the OS as well. So go into the Windows sound menus, dig around. Lots of variables here, hence "dig around".

Crap... sorry, I misread your original comment. The timing settings are default at the moment, but that "shouldn't" affect the audio playback(?). The same settings works with the Hauppauge cards. But looking at the Windows sound options, I see Virtualdub2 - capture mode. All that's available is Default, Realtek Digital Output, Speakers, and LG IPS FULLHD (Nvidia Audio). Neither setting works.

[lordsmurf]

Don't use VirtualDub2 for now. It generally works poorly with most cards. Sometimes it's a fallback for these exact Pinnacles, but systems often balk. VirtualDub2 is based on FM, which is based on the flawed 1.10.x version. Capture mode injected problems post-1.9.

Timing settings can matter for preview playback. The reason I ask is because my video system are offline, and busy, and thus I'm not in front of them, nor have access at the moment. I don't have eidetic memory, I need to see those with a new screencap. Plus it helps others anyway, later readers of this post.

Do remember that Win10 can fail. It's not actually the OS, but the system config. Too many variables, so it is somewhat random. There are very few confirmed Win10 non-working issues, enough to count on fingers. In most instances, it's settings in the software, or the OS.

In a very few instances, I've experienced and read where reinstalling the drivers was the fix. Remember that Win10 "does stuff" in the background, and it can screw up software/driver installs, etc. I have a Win11 system for non-video, and even it does quirky things at times, requiring reinstalls or reboots.

Speaking of ... did you reboot that Win10 after adding the Pinnacle? It should not matter, and yet, sometimes it does.

[bmichaelb]

OK... I'm an idiot. I'm using a video mixer for the frame sync and audio levels, but I'm currently bypassing it for the video, with only the audio connected. I forgot to turn the damn thing on... woops.

Audio works fine. Never mind.

Edit: Also, it's working without the audio playback enabled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Don't use VirtualDub2 for now.

I was only using it for the histogram, as previously I couldn't get a graph displayed with the Hauppauge cards in Virtualdub 32-bit. But strangely, it now works with the Pinnacle.

One thing I can't figure out though, is the right side of the graph doesn't have any red, even with the contrast fully moved to the right. It did show the red a few weeks ago, but for some reason, it no longer does. It's now just a peak. Is there any way to fix that, or should I just go by the peak?

[lordsmurf]

I know a lot of people like to stare at histogram, but I mostly consider those "for entertainment purposes only".

The graphs constantly change, with no regard for the entire video sum total. A graph would only be useful if it layer values over time (ideally recorded metadata, to re-review later), but that's now how those work. Little snapshots in time don't give a full understanding of values. Video isn't a still photo.

Those little graphs/meters have lots of bugs, errors, incompatibilities. I only use those if I see something odd/off during capture, or in post for a scene. I calibrate my monitor, and then "eyeball it", because eyes see videos, not graphs/meters. I've run the A/B tests of "which is more pleasing?" between the metered "perfect" values and my artful eye. I win, every time.

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I know a lot of people like to stare at histogram, but I mostly consider those "for entertainment purposes only".

The graphs constantly change, with no regard for the entire video sum total. A graph would only be useful if it layer values over time (ideally recorded metadata, to re-review later), but that's now how those work. Little snapshots in time don't give a full understanding of values. Video isn't a still photo.

Those little graphs/meters have lots of bugs, errors, incompatibilities. I only use those if I see something odd/off during capture, or in post for a scene. I calibrate my monitor, and then "eyeball it", because eyes see videos, not graphs/meters. I've run the A/B tests of "which is more pleasing?" between the metered "perfect" values and my artful eye. I win, every time.

I realize the graph changes over time, but all you experts out there say to set the brightness and contrast levels before capturing to keep everything at the 'legal' levels. What I do is start my tape, then let it run for 30 minutes or so, adjusting lower if it starts to peak. I'm pretty sure the first thread I read about it was right here on this site.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmichaelb

I realize the graph changes over time, but all you experts out there say to set the brightness and contrast levels before capturing to keep everything at the 'legal' levels. What I do is start my tape, then let it run for 30 minutes or so, adjusting lower if it starts to peak. I'm pretty sure the first thread I read about it was right here on this site.

Oh, I'm sure it was here. Several members here have written up some great information on using histograms. It's worth following for such a basic start/monitor as you're doing.

It's just not something I personally spend much time on -- probably because several decades of working with video have given me an eye for keeping values in check, and I tend to know my gear inside-out, even with my eyes closed (literally, done it).

Perhaps start a new thread on histograms, let the others answer you.

Glad to read that the audio is solved!

[bmichaelb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Oh, I'm sure it was here. Several members here have written up some great information on using histograms. It's worth following for such a basic start/monitor as you're doing.

It's just not something I personally spend much time on -- probably because several decades of working with video have given me an eye for keeping values in check, and I tend to know my gear inside-out, even with my eyes closed (literally, done it).

Perhaps start a new thread on histograms, let the others answer you.

Glad to read that the audio is solved!

In one of the posts I've read, you said that you yourself set the brightness and contrast, but leave everything else at stock. So, that's what I adjusted. Unless I read it wrong(?).

[lordsmurf]

It depends on context.

- For testing cards, setting up new systems, etc, yes, lots of testing, including histograms and more.
- For current conversion setup, where no proc amp used, I don't run graphs per-tape -- unless I think I need to add proc amp (to double check myself)
- For current conversion setup, if proc amp used/needed, I may test altered values with histograms. "May", not "will".

Needing proc amp is generally because it's very wrong visually, often not something nuanced.

There are times where I'll run a graphs, for my own sanity, because everything looks wrong. That helps me mentally reset to unity/0. Those "mental confusions" are often because I attempted a nuanced fine adjustment in proc amp.

I'm stretched thin now, so my replies in this thread may seem rushed. Defer to my prior writings as needed. Currently a bit frazzled, maybe I'm not making sense here?

To add context via analogy, sometimes running histograms is like checking your car tire pressure each time you drive. Nobody does that, unless they think something is wrong, or they know they have an ongoing issue (air seep). It can be ridiculous overkill. You have to balance science with stupid.

[bmichaelb]

Cheers. I originally had all 30 tapes captured, with levels tweaked to where it looked good, but then read the threads about the histogram. I then tested a capture using the histogram with my settings, but right side of graph was full red, and left side was also red. So now I'm redoing it all over again.

On a side note though, where I was having issues with jitter/disparity errors in Virtualdub with the Hauppauge cards, so far I haven't seen an issue after 40 minutes into this tape. I also haven't seen any of the jitter as the camera pans over the audience as I mentioned in our pm's. So far, so good.

[lordsmurf]

Excellent on both.

And for others reading this, it's not just any random Pinnacle card, but very specific versions of certain model cards. And Pinnacle isn't always what solves issues. But here, it was.

I'm always glad to read these success stories. Happy capturing!

[Gary34]

Quote:

then figuring out that I needed to select Preview, because Overlay was all screwed up.

That card is supposed to be on preview.

Quote:

The timing settings are default at the moment, but that "shouldn't" affect the audio playback(?). The same settings works with the Hauppauge cards.

The timing settings need to be right for that particular card. Here’s the 710 settings. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ure-stops.html Hopefully those are the same for the 510.

Enabling audio preview in windows 10 during capture is a bad idea. I don’t know if you did im just saying It causes issues.

Quote:

I realize the graph changes over time, but all you experts out there say to set the brightness and contrast levels before capturing to keep everything at the 'legal' levels. What I do is start my tape, then let it run for 30 minutes or so, adjusting lower if it starts to peak. I'm pretty sure the first thread I read about it was right here on this site.

I think it’s a good idea to leave some headroom on the histogram. Certain filters can expand those values in software later unintentionally. Also I have had hot spots measure into clipping when the Vdub histogram didn’t.

Quote:

I'm using a video mixer for the frame sync

I wonder about those. I’ve seen something saying those take away some of the detail but I don’t know. It’s at 8:10 https://youtu.be/QQeoQ563IPI?si=Yhem-TzSt2-23BtoI I know 12 volt vids likes them but I’ve seen videos of him saying how good the quality is on the cloner alliance boxes and a bunch of other stuff that make me give his opinion on digitizing techniques no merit.

I’m glad your setup is working good.

[bmichaelb]

Those are the settings I'm using, except I didn't enable anything under the DirectShow options. I guess I should enable the audio clock in that section then. And yeah, I disable the audio output, mostly to free up resources.

As for the histogram, yeah, I'm leaving room, but as I said earlier, I was full red before adjusting anything.

As for the mixer, the only issue I had was on one of the outputs, the image on screen would rise or lower by a few pixels on it's own, similar to vertical jitter, but it would stay in that position for a duration before lowering back down again. It does this without a tape running, and even does it with a dvd player connected. A few people on Reddit who use these things to do glitch art, suggested it's capacitors, seeing how old the thing is. I've recapped a motherboard before, so I opened it up, but there's far too many boards to inspect. It's working for what I need right now, so as soon as I've finished these captures, I'll bring it into a shop.

Edit: Actually, that audio clock is only needed if enabling audio playback, which I'm not, so I don't need it. Never mind. :-p

[bmichaelb]

I just found some documentation on the timing options, and it explained the option to disable resync when the capture card handles both the audio and video within the same device, instead of using a separate audio card:

"Automatically disable resync when integrated audio/video capture is detected
Capture devices that have both audio and video capture integrated usually use a shared clock to avoid sync errors between the streams. When enabled, this option causes VirtualDub to automatically disable auto-resync when such a situation is detected.

Note that VirtualDub must see both audio and video devices on the same capture driver for this option to take effect. If you are using a capture device which exposes its audio capture as a separate sound driver in Windows, VirtualDub will not see it as integrated."

I enabled it in the settings, and the audio timing is still rock solid. No use resyncing something that's already synced by the capture device.

Also, I just noticed something really strange between AmaRecTV and VirtualDub... even with the same cards, either Hauppauge or the Pinnacle, I'm getting different video bitrates, even though both apps are using HuffYUV. On the exact same tape, with the exact same HuffYUV settings, AmaRecTV is capturing a 2:02:xx video at 61.2Mb/s, with a total file size of 52.6GB. VirtualDub is capturing it at 106Mb/s, for a total file size of 91.2GB, and looks noticeably better. And yes, they're both YUY2. I thought it might have been a difference in capture cards, but after reinstalling the USB-Live2 and testing it out in VDub, I got the same results as the Pinnacle. I couldn't get the Pinnacle working in AmaRecTV. So for some reason, AmaRecTV is using a lower bitrate on a raw HuffYUV capture. Strange.