ATI AIW 8500 DV S-video worse than composite?

[NordicBear]

Hello!

I have got my hands on an ATI AIW 8500 DV to buy.
Looking at the picture quality the S-video look worse than running with composite.
The XP computer is connected to a flatscreen monitor.

Do you think it is something wrong with the ATI capturecard/graphicscard?

Reasons I can think of:
- Problem with the signal from the digital TV-box.
- Problem with the s-video-cable

Thanks for your help!
//NordicBear

[aramkolt]

Yeah, you've got something wrong with the S-Video there for sure. Could either be the quality of the S-Video cable, cable not making good contact to with the connectors on either side (I like deoxit spray for that), or perhaps bad capacitors on the capture card. Could also be a problem with the S-Video output from the playback device - though you have severe enough issues there that I think you'd be able to see the problems on a modern TV that has S-Video in if you want to try that.

[NordicBear]

Do someone know if it is the same capacitors running composite/s-video?

I will have to check if the signal quality from the S-video is bad as aramkolt describe.

-- merged --

Update on this thread. The problem was bad signal from source.
I will have to test the card my self but it seems to work just fine.

-- merged --

A follow up on this thread. I have now the card/computer in my belongings. Have done a couple of test from a DVD-recorder DMR-E50 that outputs S-video.
The picture is ok. But there is some strange "exposure flickering"/blooming going on. The picture turns dark/bright suddenly every 14 sec. Look at the attached video. Same issue with composite output.
The Terratec G3 does not have the same issue. So I guess it is something with the AIW-card. Drivers maybe? (6.14.10.6462). Im running MMC 7.7 and VirtualDub.

I have also tested regular VHS tapes with a Panasonic NV-HD670 with no problem. Only when playing the DVD that gives me this problem.

The attached file. Here it is.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NordicBear

Hello!
I have got my hands on an ATI AIW 8500 DV to buy.
Looking at the picture quality the S-video look worse than running with composite.

It's impossible to discern anything from a photo snap of a computer screen.

And if you're in PAL lands, the connection can be a wrinkle, especially bad SCART converters between VCR and capture card (and/or TBCs). What I see there is a chroma mess, and chroma messes are usually caused by SCART adapters.

Quote:

Do you think it is something wrong with the ATI capturecard/graphicscard?

Not yet, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

or perhaps bad capacitors on the capture card.

That never happens on these cards, I don't recall a single case in 25 years of ATI AIW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NordicBear

Do someone know if it is the same capacitors running composite/s-video?
I will have to check if the signal quality from the S-video is bad as aramkolt describe.

On a troubleshoot list of 100 items, where #1 is most likely (bad cables) and #100 is least (Martians invading), this is down the list with little green men.

Quote:

A follow up on this thread. I have now the card/computer in my belongings. Have done a couple of test from a DVD-recorder DMR-E50 that outputs S-video.
The picture is ok. But there is some strange "exposure flickering"/blooming going on. The picture turns dark/bright suddenly every 14 sec. Look at the attached video. Same issue with composite output.

This is due to copy protection on the DVD (or false detection). This is due to lack of any TBC in the analog workflow. Consumer capture cards were forced to look for anti-copy/Macrovision (due to threat of legal actions by the movie industry), and choke on perceived detection. But note that anti-copy is merely an artificial video error, and natural video errors will cause the same outcomes.

Quote:

The Terratec G3 does not have the same issue.

Oh, it does. It will drop frames, and lose audio sync, just as easily as an AIW (or anything else) without any TBCs in the workflow. Some cards are less touchy to the artificial anti-copy, but those will still fail on natural errors. How quickly/slowly it detects anti-copy is not really a determination of card quality,

Quote:

So I guess it is something with the AIW-card. Drivers maybe? (6.14.10.6462). Im running MMC 7.7 and VirtualDub.

MMC 7.7 is awful, and the drivers may be too old. The 8500 AIW disc drivers are non-optimal.

Quote:

I have also tested regular VHS tapes with a Panasonic NV-HD670 with no problem. Only when playing the DVD that gives me this problem.

Yep, that confirms the anti-copy detection.

Quote:

The attached file. Here it is.

I hope that's just a quick exposure sample, and not a sample of what a final capture would look like. It's a deinterlaced mess. I'm betting this is using one of the lousy MMC default/preset templates. Never use those. Those awful settings are why I made some of my earliest capture guides, still found on this site.

[themaster1]

Rookie mistake, guy's discovering the effects of macrovision
your solutions:
1- Rip the dvd and remove all protections (DVDFAB etc..) burn onto a blank disc (might be a challenge as far size unless you burn on a 2 layers (DL) dvd but then possible skip in the middle of the flick.
2- Use a Grex in between or similar: TBC, video mixer/stabilizer), quality might not be as good as 1.

I am assuming this is for private use here.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

2- Use a Grex in between or similar:

Ah, good call.

- Grex is a complete POS/garbage for VHS/tape/analog sources.
- But for DVD sources, Grex works perfectly. I've used mine many times to re-record/re-capture OTA DVD recordings that embedded MV flags. Even dumping from the DVD recorder HDD gave no useful files.

[themaster1]

I could copy my X-files tapes thanks to the Grex. Quality is... well i'm dealing with Secam so not drawing conlusions, i get what you're saying. I've tried on some dvd's aswell (house of 1000 corpses etc..), that was ok.

[aramkolt]

As far as bad capacitors on AGP AIW cards, it definitely happens, I have three of the 9x00 series, and they all had at least a few capacitors that tested bad with ESRs around 20, though hard to remember specifics since I did it over a year ago.

Whether the capacitors that go bad affect picture quality for captures or not, I can't really say, I just replaced them all since it was easy enough to do and gets rid of a potential cause of an inferior capture. One model I refurbed had around 25 SMT caps, so it can be a little time consuming to say the least, so it's not for everyone, especially if you test in-circuit and there appear to be no issues. I think the 9200's had among the fewest if memory serves with only around 10.

Graphics cards can get fairly warm during gameplay, so kind of depends on how the specific card was used/cooled by the original owner back in the early 2000s and if those specific ones happened to be affected by the capacitor plague. Heat is definitely the enemy of capacitors in general. Modern graphics cards use organic polymer/solid capacitors that don't have those issues, so that's less of a problem these days.

One of the AIW cards I received actually had a few caps changed by someone else before it made it to me on the second hand market, so I don't think I'm the only one who has noticed this.

[NordicBear]

Hello guys! Nice to meet you all! I'm in PAL land and in a different timezone. Can't keep up with your answers here!

My conclusion that the AIW card is just fine. The test with the DVD was just to confirm with a good S-video signal. I guess we all been there hitting the barrier of macrovision.
I will search the forum for more examples of this "exposure flickering".

My purpose with this workflow is to copy my old VHS-C and S VHS-C tapes. This is just a start of this journey.

[NordicBear]

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-software.html
Superiorem have done a remarkable job in this thread to find the right driver for the 8500 DV. But what driver is the best? And what did he end up with?

In my setup I also have driver
Driver Provider: ATI Technologies Inc.
Driver Date: 3/23/2004
Driver Version: 6.14.10.6462

But from what I can tell there is a newer version at AMD driver support. Catalyst 6.11 from date 11/15/2006.
https://www.amd.com/en/support/downl...on-8500dv.html

[lordsmurf]

No, nothing from the AMD site. Some of the drivers are so bad, you'll have to reformat the computer.

[NordicBear]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

MMC 7.7 is awful, and the drivers may be too old. The 8500 AIW disc drivers are non-optimal.

Now I have spend some time trying to upgrade the MMC to 8.7.
I cannot get it to work.
From my "trail and error"-tests I maybe already have the most stable softwares.
MMC7.7 and VirualDub are running ok with drivers from early 2004.
I have done my reseach in the big AIW drivers thread.

If some do know the "driver-recipe" for MMC 8.7+
for the 7500 / 8500 cards, feel free to comment this post!

[NordicBear]

Finally I have collect all the hardware that I need.
Now running my 8500DV connected to a Panasonic F200.

I would like to get some opinions on some test videos from my capture. I do not really what to expect.
Tested situations:
Software: MMC 7.7, Vitualdub
- Private VCR recorded photage, not the best recording, but still an example.
- Short capture of Space Jam
For benchmark I have used a terratec G3 for test capture on a Win 7 computer.

Hope it is ok to link to bigger .avi-files.
25i:
https://sprend.com/download?C=709405...d19327bf1883ee
https://sprend.com/download?C=1dc735...66afbc19165e03

25p: deinterlaced in Hybrid
https://sprend.com/download?C=58dff4...1857d0db0d1f81

Thanks for your help!