VCR for recording digital source to tape?

[witchingseasonfilms]

Hey gang,

I realize TBC is very important in terms of capturing tape to digital, but how important is it when it comes to recording from a digital source to a tape? The topic has been beaten to death for the latter, but I can't seem to find much info about recommended VCRs for recording to tape.

I realize finding a VCR with an s-video input and hi-fi stereo will be a good starting point (in addition to high quality, blank tapes), but how beyond that much does it truly matter to get a higher end VCR (with TBC) for the purpose of writing to tape? I'm hoping to squeeze as much quality as possible into these tapes, within reason.

Any insight here or recommended VCRs for this purpose would be hugely appreciated.

[aramkolt]

You don't need a TBC at all when going from digital to tape since there are no timebase errors in a digital source. What might matter more is the device that you use to make the digital content into analog though. Personally, a good chain I've found would be using a Blackmagic 3G monitor device and then taking the SDI from that and converting it to whatever analog output you need using something like a Brighteye BE16. The Brighteye can output composite, component, or S-Video and has a USB software/proc amp so that you can fine tune the output levels exactly match what you're expecting, though to do that, you'll need an analog vectorscope/waveform monitor if you want to confirm the exact levels expected with test patterns like color bars etc.

Another option would be using something like an Extron VSC500 which will take any VGA source and convert it to 480i and output via component, composite, or S-Video. These were pretty useful back in the day when you wanted to get a computer screen to be accurately displayed on a CRT or presumably to make a recording onto analog media.

The first option is probably going to give you more fine control however with the proc amp. Main downside to the 3G monitor is that it's possible that not all programs will support it. But if you're using something like resolve which is also a Blackmagic product, it makes it pretty easy. You basically just throw whatever content you want into a 480i timeline and it'll do the rest. It's basically like its own graphics card that operates independently of the operating system of the computer and is more often used by colorists that want a raw feed of what is on the timeline rather than being affected by computer monitor/OS settings etc.

[Gary34]

You won’t need a proc amp because it’s a digital signal. It won’t have values that are all over the place. If you did have to change values you could just do it in software then output a timeline to a VHS tape. I know the intensity shuttle did that with the old versions of premier pro. That would be good if you wanted to edit before going to tape. Your tapes should look pretty good if they are starting with a digital source. I would just try to get a VCR that is in really good condition. You could also use an HDMI to Svideo converter. I’m guessing the shuttle is better but idk. I don’t know how picky you want to be either since you are going to tape. Maybe you want a kind of noisy video with some issues for nostalgia.

[lordsmurf]

Actually.... TBCs can be useful here.

Why, you ask? Well, there's no guarantee that a computer signal output is entirely accurate. Computers are busy beasts, and "do stuff" all the time. General use computers are not dedicated video tools -- like a TBC is.

Some of my earliest restoration work was a blend of analog and digital, and involved re-output to tape. That's because DVDs were not available yet, this was pre-2001. But I had troubles with the process (essentially interlacing/time oddities in the recording), and this one one of the reasons that I invested in TBCs.

Note that VCR line TBCs do nothing on recording. I refer specifically to computer output > external frame TBC > tape input for recording. The quality of the recording VCR does not matter, in terms of signal quality. The VCR comes last here, which is opposite of capture scenarios. All it really controls is S-VHS vs. VHS, and a lower-end S-VHS deck like the HR-S3800 is perfect here. And that's what I used at the time, a pair of 3800s.

I know people like to scream "but it's digital!" but it stops being digital when it leaves the computer. It's still analog in process.

These days, I generally suggest recording from NLE timeline to DV tape, then playing it to a VCR. But the challenge there is finding a system old enough, and NLE version old enough, that outputting to DV tape is still possible. Lots of 20-30 year output methods have disappeared now in modern software versions. Even the Firewire output connections can be a PITA. So back to "easier" options, and TBC can be critical there.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchingseasonfilms

Hey gang,

I realize TBC is very important in terms of capturing tape to digital, but how important is it when it comes to recording from a digital source to a tape? The topic has been beaten to death for the latter, but I can't seem to find much info about recommended VCRs for recording to tape.

I realize finding a VCR with an s-video input and hi-fi stereo will be a good starting point (in addition to high quality, blank tapes), but how beyond that much does it truly matter to get a higher end VCR (with TBC) for the purpose of writing to tape? I'm hoping to squeeze as much quality as possible into these tapes, within reason.

Any insight here or recommended VCRs for this purpose would be hugely appreciated.

Not sure what your purpose is here. Many are unaware that the first serious digital audio, video and data recordings were to magnetic tape, and this remained so for decades until finally maybe in the 90's when HDD's started to catch up in terms of data capacity. But unknown to many, digital data tape is still very much in use today for data backup. It's mainly the big end of town that does this as some serious upfront costs can be incurred. If you have been uploading some of your own digital files, videos etc to the cloud, some of it may have been archived to modern day digital magnetic tape. You may have already been uploading data to digital magnetic tape without even knowing it. It's been going on for a very long time.

Analog recording is by definition lossy. Duplicating a digital file can be done multiple times with no losses, regardless of the destination format.

[themaster1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchingseasonfilms

Any insight here or recommended VCRs for this purpose would be hugely appreciated.

high Signal to noise ratio and high dynamic is what you're looking for i believe.

Some of the best vcr's i have tried or fixed are about 45dB (JVC -S-VHS 7000-9000 series) and 80-90 dB (Panasonic NV-HD600) for the dynamic

I guess you could also put a good DAC in between the digital audio player and VCR

[latreche34]

dB for what? audio? Most VCRs are around 90dB for hi-fi regardless the brand, Not sure what 45dB is for, but video signal to noise ratio for any VCR is about that much.

[witchingseasonfilms]

Thanks for all the responses here! Sounds like TBC may help and certainly doesn't hurt. I ended up finding a Mitsu HS-HD2000U for a good deal and will give that a whirl.

[aramkolt]

What will your chain be from going from digital to analog going into the VCR?

[witchingseasonfilms]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

What will your chain be from going from digital to analog going into the VCR?

This may not be the most advisable, but I've had modest success getting decent looking tapes by running a Blu-ray with the digital file from an old PS3 using Sony's MULTI cable/converter that outputs to S-Video/Composite (and downscaling), then into the VCR. I'm not sure how this type of digital to analog conversion compares to other options, but having a dedicated player that can run the file is a plus.

I may invest in the the BM 3G Monitor + BE16 (or something similar) and do some testing to compare in the future, however.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchingseasonfilms

Thanks for all the responses here! Sounds like TBC may help and certainly doesn't hurt. I ended up finding a Mitsu HS-HD2000U for a good deal and will give that a whirl.

A line TBC built into a VCR is only for playing the tape on that VCR. The TBC does not work in passthrough.

What I refer to is a frame TBC, an external Cypress/Datavideo type unit. As per my last post, the reason is because the analog output from a computer graphics card is often not precise, and was merely an afterthought feature. In fact, those often have multiple issues, including refresh rate, overscan, and interlace conflicts.

But in the post, I simple referred to the common mistiming that necessitates frame TBC.

Again, not line TBC.

The HD2000 Mitsu deck does absolutely nothing for you in this regard.

[witchingseasonfilms]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

A line TBC built into a VCR is only for playing the tape on that VCR. The TBC does not work in passthrough.

What I refer to is a frame TBC, an external Cypress/Datavideo type unit. As per my last post, the reason is because the analog output from a computer graphics card is often not precise, and was merely an afterthought feature. In fact, those often have multiple issues, including refresh rate, overscan, and interlace conflicts.

But in the post, I simple referred to the common mistiming that necessitates frame TBC.

Again, not line TBC.

The HD2000 Mitsu deck does absolutely nothing for you in this regard.

Ah gotchya, that makes sense. I needed a VCR with s-video input for this project regardless. Unrelated, but the HD2000 opens up possibilities of doing better VHS captures in the future.

[latreche34]

What I found out works better is using a media player that has HDMI out, then use a HDMI to SDI box and a SDI to S-Video converter, I've tried so many HDMI to analog converter even the brand name ones and none of them produced a rec.601 video for conversion to analog, I either get black bands around the frame, frame tearing and/or noise, washed out colors, wrong levels...etc. SDI route seems to do the tric.

I picked up two boxes one HDMItoSDI and one SDItoS-Video (Aja D4E) for peanuts, both run out of 5V/2A so I just used one power supply for both with a little mod and glued them together, I wrote about it here.

If you want to record widescreen contents to a VCR you will have to have a capable media player that gives the right choices, Squeeze the frame horizontally to fit into 4:3 frame and then stretch it back during playback on a 16:9 TV, this called anamorphic recording. Or add black bars on top and bottom of frame to fit in the 4:3 frame, and play it back as is on a 4:3 TV, this is called letterboxing recording.

[aramkolt]

I believe when you have your video in DaVinci, it'll let you choose Rec601 and it'll be output that way by the 3G monitor, but I haven't done a whole lot of testing to say for sure. I can say it's easy to get a good output with chroma targets landing exactly where they should with no noise on the analog waveform monitor using the Monitor 3G and BE16 to convert to analog, but yes, that is also a type of SDI route.

[latreche34]

The problem with cheap digital to analog converters is they don't scale correctly even from a good rec.601 source material, That and I also found out that computers in general with analog output add on don't give a full analog frame, they either overscan or add black margins.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

The problem with cheap digital to analog converters is they don't scale correctly even from a good rec.601 source material, That and I also found out that computers in general with analog output add on don't give a full analog frame, they either overscan or add black margins.

Yep, and it's not changed in 30 years now. It's never full analog, but framed, and with off levels. I forgot about that in my last post.

I think the easiest, and "best easily affordable and available" method, is the output DV right from the timeline, back to tape. Then simply record from DV camera to VCR.

I'm not sure about SDI boxes, but I would assume it's possible. But not easily, not affordably. You'd bypass the computer graphics card, using some sort of SDI box brand software to read/play the file out. Or NLE timeline output to a dedicated file. I'm fairly certain such things existed, but it's been at least 15 years now since I was reading about this sort of gear. Probably Blackmagic SD, some others.

Have you ever tried to output from your SDI setups?

[latreche34]

Yes, I linked the hardware above, SDI works best from a SDI recorder or from a media player capable of HDMI 480i, I havn't tried SDI expansion cards on a computer. The SD-SDI SMPTE 259M @ 270 Mbit/s developped in 1989 at the hey day of analog formats it works both ways analog to digital and digital to analog, The Aja digital to analog converter I used produces a perfect analog signal according to input format injected (PAL, SECAM or NTSC).

[witchingseasonfilms]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

What I found out works better is using a media player that has HDMI out, then use a HDMI to SDI box and a SDI to S-Video converter, I've tried so many HDMI to analog converter even the brand name ones and none of them produced a rec.601 video for conversion to analog, I either get black bands around the frame, frame tearing and/or noise, washed out colors, wrong levels...etc. SDI route seems to do the tric.

I picked up two boxes one HDMItoSDI and one SDItoS-Video (Aja D4E) for peanuts, both run out of 5V/2A so I just used one power supply for both with a little mod and glued them together, I wrote about it here.

If you want to record widescreen contents to a VCR you will have to have a capable media player that gives the right choices, Squeeze the frame horizontally to fit into 4:3 frame and then stretch it back during playback on a 16:9 TV, this called anamorphic recording. Or add black bars on top and bottom of frame to fit in the 4:3 frame, and play it back as is on a 4:3 TV, this is called letterboxing recording.

Those AJA D4E's are super affordable, I'm surprised.

Using this workflow, are you able to connect directly to your PC graphics card using HDMI out?

[aramkolt]

The problem you'll probably run into is that the incoming SDI probably already needs to be 480i which your graphics card is unlikely to support as an output over HDMI. I can't comment for sure since I don't own one. What the D4E definitely lacks is a proc amp, so you can't fine tune luma/chroma levels like you can with the brighteye, though to really benefit from that, you'll need an analog waveform monitor/vectorscope to check output levels of the analog conversion. What I suggested with the 3G monitor will output 480i over SDI assuming it is in a davinci timeline that is set to 480i and davinci will do the downscaling.

On the other hand, some brighteye products can handle SD and HDSDI inputs, so theoretically those could downscale all on their own and you might be able to feed it a certain HD resolution like 1080p and it'll convert to 480i.

This one is pretty reasonably priced and has the power adapter you'll need as well:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/395459134514

The 3G monitor will be a more color accurate SDI source though as it bypasses any of the operating system's display settings and takes instructions straight from davinci in terms of color space etc.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchingseasonfilms

Using this workflow, are you able to connect directly to your PC graphics card using HDMI out?

No, computer does not produce a compatible frame even via HDMI, Computer resolutions and video resolutions don't get along, this is a known fact for decades, Ask Lordsmurf he's been around, he will tell you.