JVC HR-S9800U Stabilizer vs. line TBC example?

[billct97]

This has probably been discussed many times but I wanted to share an undeniable example of the JVC Video Stabilizer feature working 100% better than the Digital TBC/NR (green button).

This was a rather damaged tape with serious vertical jumping. You can see that at the start of the video. Then I set the Video Stabilization which turns off the TBC green button and the video is much more stable. At 23 seconds I turn the TBC button back on and it returns to jumping.

JVC-S9800U
DataVideo TBC-3000
ATI 600 USB
VirtualDub 1.9.11 on Windows XP
Huffyuv AVI to X.264 MP4 in Hybrid.

[lordsmurf]

So people don't get the wrong idea, this is an edge case. An exception, not the norm. This is why all settings should be tested on really bad tapes.

98%+ of tapes need line TBC. Less than 1% have such issues. (And yes, a single person may have dozens or bad tapes, but dozens of people will have none, so the math is still accurate.)

[Aya_Rei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

So people don't get the wrong idea, this is an edge case. An exception, not the norm. This is why all settings should be tested on really bad tapes.

Indeed, as an example got a VHS tape that was an edited together demonstration tape on wood cutting machines (as in the finished tape was edited the old fashion way on a specific editing VCR)

During certain spots the footage was jumpy for a few seconds, using the shift field avisynth filter trick wouldn't be worth it. The VCR's Line TBC couldn't fix it, nor having the Video Stabilizer turned on. But an ES15 used as a line TBC passthrough worked (With the video stabilizer turned off)

[latreche34]

Video stabilisation and line TBC are completly different features, It is stated in the manual that if a feature gives you a problem turn it off, This is why they made one turns off when you activate the other, So you can't say one is better than the other because they address different issues.

[aramkolt]

I'd be curious to see the same capture with the TBC-3000 removed from the chain with the stabilizer on. I've seen some comparison videos that show that the ATI600 has some line TBC like effects, but you probably won't benefit from them if the TBC-3000 is in front of it which will bake in line errors that haven't been corrected prior to it. Normally that won't be an issue with your VCR's line TBC on, but you might be able to get the stabilization from the JVC and then the line effect from the ATI without the TBC-3000.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I've seen some comparison videos that show that the ATI600 has some line TBC like effects,

No, that's completely false. No such function exists. I need see those videos.

It's almost irritating when the term "TBC" is thrown around so loosely. Does my toaster have one, too?

Quote:

I'd be curious to see the same capture with the TBC-3000 removed from the chain with the stabilizer on.
but you probably won't benefit from them if the TBC-3000 is in front of it which will bake in line errors that haven't been corrected prior to it. Normally that won't be an issue with your VCR's line TBC on, but you might be able to get the stabilization from the JVC and then the line effect from the ATI without the TBC-3000.

What you're getting at here, essentially, is just good "process of elimination" troubleshooting (aka the scientific method). When good gear is in use (and assuming it's functioning properly), it's simply a matter of appeasing a problem tape (or even a library of tapes, having been made on she same likely-faulty recording gear). That's why most of us own multiple VCRs, multiple TBCs, and multiple capture cards -- plus other devices.

[billct97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I'd be curious to see the same capture with the TBC-3000 removed from the chain with the stabilizer on.

I monitor captures on a regular TV using the composite output (vdub will not capture accurately for me when using Overlay or Preview modes). So no TBC-3000 in the composite -> TV path and that showed the same result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

So people don't get the wrong idea, this is an edge case. An exception, not the norm. This is why all settings should be tested on really bad tapes.

I agree this is an edge case and why I mentioned it in case it helps someone who might not think to try this. In 30+ tapes (so far) this is the first time I had to do this.

[BarryTheCrab]

After hundreds of tapes thru my S7800u I had just one that played better with the stabilizer, but play better it did.

[aramkolt]

Here's the video showing line-tbc-like effects of the ATI600 by itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SRoGgJZbwc&t=78s

The effect we want from a line TBC is to ignore the horizontal blanking interval (the timebase for lines) and start outputting data so that each line of active video line starts at the same place on the left of the screen after the color burst. It's technically not a TBC because TBCs are analog to digital (with buffer) to analog. We aren't trying to correct the timebase and then re-output it with a new sync signal and colorburst as analog, we just want the video in a digital stream with those characteristics.

I can't speak as to whether the ATI alone will drop frames if used that way, but the images shouldn't have significant horizontal wobble that is typical without a line TBC.

Easy enough for the OP to try though, just capture that same content with and without image stabilization on (with line TBC off) AND WITHOUT the TBC-3000 in both cases. Should show exactly what we want to see. I don't have an original ATI600 to test, so I can't do this test myself.

A regular TV with live playback won't show what we are after. The correction occurs within the ATI600, so a live monitoring of the composite that hasn't been through to the ATI (which is USB output anyway) will not have been corrected yet.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

...."TBC" is thrown around so loosely. Does my toaster have one, too?

Toast Burned Completely? If so, yes!

Clearly some gear is, on the whole, better than other gear when in like-new condition. But with all legacy gear its current condition matters, and thus a so-so VCR in great shape can do better than an individual great VCR model in poor condition.

Likewise where image processing options can be enables/disabled in the chain it makes sense to try the various setting to determine which works best for a given tape if not satisfied with the default settings. And keep in mind that devices closer to the source may "bake in" flaws that later devices cannot remove.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Here's the video showing line-tbc-like effects of the ATI600 by itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SRoGgJZbwc&t=78s

Ignore the BS AI-generated voice, claiming that the ATI "remove" tearing. Look at the video. It does nothing or the sort. Very obviously so.

[billct97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Easy enough for the OP to try though, just capture that same content with and without image stabilization on (with line TBC off) AND WITHOUT the TBC-3000 in both cases. Should show exactly what we want to see. I don't have an original ATI600 to test, so I can't do this test myself.

Here it is with the JVC direct into the ATI 600, no TBC3000. Visually it looks the same to me although while the jumping is gone with the JVC Video Stabilization enabled the top of the screen looks less stable than with the JVC TBC enabled.

Worth noting, I have never run without the TBC3000. This test confirmed it's value. With the JVC direct into the ATI600 and before enabling the JVC Video Stabilization (while the video was jumpy) dropped frames was over 150 in 1 minute and the average fps under 27. It's never like that with this workflow! With the JVC Video Stabilization enabled dropped frames stopped incrementing.

I just realized you had asked for a test with the JVC Digital TBC/NR button off in both cases. It was on for the first part of the test. Maybe I'll do that later. Right now I need to get back to the weekend to-do list!

[SVHS Fan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

So people don't get the wrong idea, this is an edge case. An exception, not the norm. This is why all settings should be tested on really bad tapes.

I tend to agree with you on this, LS. I've had the Video Stabilizer on a couple of my JVCs and I don't recall it being helpful on bad or good tapes over the years.