SDI PCIe card vs. SDI USB capture device?

[Davis]

I want to start capturing SDI uncompressed and have been looking at the various Blackmagic cards. I would probably just use Media Express. Then I want to learn to use Vegas Pro 23 to do what cleaning up and editing of the files need before encoding and authoring. I see they have one card that will capture and playback in SDI and then just the SDI Mini Capture card. Also, USB capture devices are a possibility. I will turn off anti-virus and internet connection when capturing to hopefully avoid any problems. Thanks for any info and recommendations.

Marty Davis

[latreche34]

There are BM, Aja, Magewel, be aware some Magewel SDI to USB have limitation to 8bit only, in case you are looking into 10bit, There is a better option that eliminate all OS problems, a SDI recorder, I use the BM HyperDeck Shutter II into a SSD and then dock the SSD for computer post processing.

Get one with bad internal battery for very cheap, you don't need the battery to use it, just plug in the power adapter.

[aramkolt]

Interesting, I hadn't really followed the smaller hyper decks, that's an interesting option which has uncompressed 10 bit capture that I thought they'd reserved for a few of the rack mount units only. I guess then the main downside would be that it'll need adapters to go to regular sized BNC, but not the end of the world.

I personally like the AJA KiPro (though it won't do uncompressed, maxes out at ProRes422HQ which is 10 bit and probably would look better than an uncompressed 8 bit capture in low contrast scenes). The advantage to the AJA is that it can embed audio and has outputs for audio which can be useful for monitoring. Further, it has analog component video input which can be useful if combined with professional TBCs that have component output but that lack SDI output. The main downside to those is that they do require a bulkier power adapter and expensive drive modules. Looks like you could get the whole hyperdeck shuttle 2 for around the cost of the hard drive module alone for the AJA.

Other thing to keep in mind is that both AJA and Blackmagic products tend to use Mac formatted drives, so you may need to install third party drivers for windows if you want to read the data on something other than a Mac.

[Davis]

Thanks for the info. I like the BM HyperDeck Shuttle 2, but it records uncompressed as a Quicktime file. In doing some research Vegas Pro 23 could possibly have trouble working with that file format. I've looked at other BM recorders and they record uncompressed as Quicktime also. The PCIe Mini Recorder card will record as AVI uncompressed. That may be the safer option. ProRes 422 is visually lossless, but that's not uncompressed although Vegas would work with it without any problems. I could render the timeline as uncompressed AVI and then use that file in TMPGenc Video Mastering Works to encode to MPEG2. I could probably just render from the timeline and let Vegas Pro encode to MPEG2, would have to try that. I really like the TMPGenc Video Mastering Works and then I use their Authoring Works program to author. Guess I'll just have to try something and see how it works out.

[latreche34]

Uncompressed Quicktime is not the issue, You can put it into vdub2 while doing the rough cuts of the capture and output HuffYUV YUV2, I couldn't see any visual degradation myself compared to an AVI capture. The issue is the 16 audio tracks that it forces into the video while capturing, Although it can be downsized to stereo or 4ch (broadcast tapes) but there is a bug in vdub that you cannot make edits while converting the audio to fewer channels in the same step, so now I'm doing the cut edits when I de-interlace and/or crop/resize to keep the same number of steps. The good news is the entire process is lossless except the de-interlacing and resizing inherit losses which are very minimal.

A previous firmware allowed uncompressed AVI but finding it is like finding a unicorn let alone the low possibility of reverting to an older firmware, My advice is if anyone buys the HyperDeck S2 don't update the firmware.

Aramkolt, The HyperDeck S2 has a HDMI out for monitoring both video and audio, I use it with a PC monitor that has headphones output so I can monitor both video and audio, I even got a 3.5mm splitter pigtail to connect a LED VU meter and calibrated its level so I can dial in the audio gain in the TBS800 for tapes with low audio level.

Here is the exact one I'm using, I had to throw away the splitter that came with it, too flimsy, I bought a good quality splitter, Conveniently my video monitor has a USB out so I powered the VU meter from the monitor itself, I specifically bought this monitor for this task with all the options needed.

[Bogilein]

What are the advantages of using a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 over the Ultra Studio SDI you used before?

Apart from the fact that you no longer need a computer for recording.

[aramkolt]

That is a pretty cool VU meter! I tend to just run the SDI into a Videotek TVM or VTM series waveform monitor which also has the audio monitoring card, so you can see the digital audio levels to assure there's no clipping going on (and also no luma/chroma clipping going on with the waveform monitor/vectorscope function).

As far as audio channels, my frustration with the standalone AJA devices (and probably all SDI capture devices) is that each audio channel is "mono", so you later generally have to merge channel 1 and 2 into a single stereo track if you want both to be audible in a standard player as you can usually only listen to one audio track at a time unless you're in a nonlinear editor that supports simultaneous multitrack playback. Luckily, FFMPEG can leave the video untouched, and make two mono tracks into a stereo track, then discard all of the unwanted channels in a single step. Adds some extra steps, but I think that's just how SDI audio works in many cases, but could just be the devices I've happened to have been using.

The main advantage of a standalone device is portability, reliability, and is OS independent. Since it's single task, you don't have to worry about system updates or some other hiccup to cause dropped frames.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

What are the advantages of using a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 over the Ultra Studio SDI you used before?

Apart from the fact that you no longer need a computer for recording.

Two major advantages, One being, when a tape passes a sections with no video or excessive noise due to dropouts or tape damage MediaExpress occasionally quits capturing, with a SDI recorder it just rips through. The second is, when working on other videos or doing other tasks while capturing, MediaExpress sometimes freezes or quits due to dropped frames, The SDI recorder solved the multitasking issue.

So now I can have a capture, a script running and an upload all running together while at work or at dinner or at a friends house.

I could list other advantages such as you can take it to someone who own a machine that you don't have or you want to try a different machine without having to take the computer with you.

I could still use UltraStudio SDI with another capture device and a tape player if I wanted to have two captures running at the same time, so that's a plus too.

I tried other capture applications like vdub and they tend to behave in a similar manner, so it is not the capture app to blame here, it's the nature of analog tapes.

Of course I could have dedicated a computer for just capturing but I'm not doing this enough to justify having an extra machine sitting for just capturing, I only capture occasionally for videos I put on my YT channel or if I get a project, I also sometimes volunteer for school or charity archiving projects.

I do have a Win7 Sony laptop with firewire slot for tasks like DV/HDV, D8, D-VHS, DAT, MD that I use for just those tasks, I don't want the LCD screen to run more than it needs to to extend its life.

[Davis]

I ordered a Blackmagic PCIe Mini Recorder and it should be here today. Since I have a Tricaster 860 and 460 I can capture as SDI and make any audio and video adjustments before starting the capture or during capture. The SDI out can feed the Blackmagic card on another pc to capture as uncompressed AVI. I would like to try a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and feed the SDI from the Tricaster to it. I still may get one and try it. It would be a Quicktime mov file as uncompressed, but I think the Tricaster would read it directly and if not it's easy to convert to uncompressed AVI. I did watch one video on YouTube where a guy had trouble with them just stopping recording for some reason, but hopefully that wouldn't happen. Be nice to have one as a backup portable recorder for weddings and funerals at my church also.

-- merged --

Just as an update, I now have a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 coming. Hopefully, it will work correctly and I can record uncompressed SDI coming from my Tricaster. Probably get to test everything out in the next week or two.

Marty

[latreche34]

You need a SSD for it and it's picky, To be safe stick to the well known brands like Sandisk.

[Davis]

I have a 1TB Samsung EVO860 I can try. Any particular Sandisk you use and have had good luck using it?

Marty

[latreche34]

I have the 1TB SanDisk Ultra.

Attached is a list of compatible SSDs but unfortunately this was published 5 years ago and no updated version is available for the current drives since the HyperDeck SII has been discontinued long time ago.

[Davis]

Your info is newer than what I had found. Luckily, my Samsung drive is on the list. The drive is suppose to arrive in the mail tomorrow. I got my SDI Mini Recorder installed in the PC I was going to put it in. I should have options as to how I want to capture from SDI when I have everything working.

Marty

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You need a SSD for it and it's picky, To be safe stick to the well known brands like Sandisk.

I've learned (the hard way) to only trust Samsung SSDs.

[Davis]

Maybe I got lucky for once! Mine is a Samsung 860 EV0 and the model number matches what they have listed. I'll need to format it as exfat, and hopefully it will work.

Marty

[Davis]

I wanted to look at the settings for the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, and it wanted to update. Unfortunately, I let it, and then it would not record audio, and the file size was extremely large. I think I found the last software update released by Blackmagic and tried installing it, and it seemed to work. That version was 4.4.1. I tried capturing again and still have no audio, and a 5 minute capture was 45gig. I think I may have bricked this unit, unless someone has another idea.

[aramkolt]

I bought a Hyperdeck Shuttle II just based on this conversation, but haven't tested it yet. Could be after the update that an audio setting got changed somewhere?

Some googling shows an uncompressed 10 bit capture can be around 7GB per minute, though that's for 1080p. Are you sure you aren't upscaling somewhere in there? Does that 45GB file actually play? Assume the file info will tell you more about bitrate and whether it's still interlaced etc.

[Davis]

Yes, the video file will play, but I don't think my editing software likes .mov. I'm going to convert the file to .avi and then see how it plays. I may not need the Hyperdeck in my workflow now, but I would like to get it working again. I have the option to capture uncompressed with a Blackmagic Minirecorder PC card that accepts SDI I installed in a PC and have Vegas Pro on that system. I would just have to learn to edit with that software. The other option is I have a Tricaster that will capture SDI as .AVI although it's not fully uncompressed, it is a very high-quality file. I can then edit on that system and render it out as fully uncompressed AVI to move to the PC with encoding and authoring software on it. The file gets really large, but that's not a problem for me.

I'll post a little later today what the file specs are for the file it captures.

Thanks,
Marty

[latreche34]

It records in multi channel audio so your software might be picking a blank audio channel, Connect to the BM setup software and let us know what codec the HDSII is recording at. You need a mini USB cable to connect the recorder to computer. Or you can just post a short sample or the captured file settings here.


Edit:
Out of curiosity, I connected the other HDSII unit I have and it's asking for a firmware update, Both units are at V 8.4.1, This is weird. The second one I bought has indeed the Uncompressed 10bit option which I hadn't know.
Can you make the firmware file you have available for download?

Screenshot of the second unit:

[Davis]

Okay, did some more test and here is what the file specs are it's recording:
Data Rate 225306kbps
Total Bit Rate 243868kbps
29.97 frames/second
Audio
18562kbps
Channels 16
48khz

The file will play okay in VLC Media Player and will play in Vegas Pro. My Tricaster won't play it. Before the firmware it would try to play it, but didn't play well and the audio had some crackling like noise in it. I think it just doesn't like mov files.

My version 4.4.1 software that's installed on it now has the following choices which is the same as your second unit:

Uncompressed 10 bit
ProResHQ
DNxHD QT
DNxHD MXF

Trigger I have set to never
Timecode set to off

So what choices does your first unit show? Does it now show the Uncompressed 10 bit?

Also, it is showing 16 channels of audio in Vegas Pro. I wish there was a way to change that. I don't think this unit is going to be much help for most of what I do, but it could be a good backup recording at church especially if I'm recording a wedding or funeral. My switcher has a memory card recorder built in that records MP4, but sometimes that has flaked out on me. I can feed SDI to the Hyperdeck from my switcher without an issue, so it may be really good for this and I can convert the file to AVI. If I used Vegas Pro to edit in all the time, it might work well, but I don't won't to have to convert everything I capture before I can edit on the Tricaster using the SpeedEdit software.

It's too bad, they don't record in AVI also. I'll see if I can post the Ver 4.4.1 software. I actually found it on the Blackmagic download site and from some reading, I was under the impression that it was the last firmware update that was released.

Thanks,
Marty