s-video capture is not sharp?

[Lazer]

Hi all, I'm a new member, so go easy on me. My current VHS capture workflow is as follows:

JVC 4800U (non-TBC) -> Panasonic ES15 -> Blackmagic Analog to SDI Converter -> Blackmagic Ultra Studio Recorder 3G. I connect via S Video and use an S Video to BNC splitter cable to connect to the BM Analog Converter.

I was excited to try the S Video setup, but had mixed results. On one hand, the colors are fantastic. On the other, there's significant loss of detail––the picture is slightly "muddy."

Previously, I was using a Panasonic blue line consumer VCR via Composite cables. I compared identical captures between the Blue Line via Composite and the JVC via S Video and found that the Composite Panasonic image was much sharper but had inferior color. I know I should be testing the JVC via composite to rule out if it's the VCR, but wanted to ask if this was a common phenomenon––superior colors with S Video at the sacrifice of a significantly less sharp image.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[aramkolt]

Hard to say, but a short capture or screenshots of the same frame on both setups would likely help.

The other test I'd say is worth doing us trying capturing the composite output from your 4800U. If that composite is much less sharp than the Panasonic blue line's composite, it's probably down to differences within the VCRs.

Other thing to look at would be what the menu settings within the 4800U are set to. You may get a sharper image if you use the Edit mode for playback which applies less noise reduction. The ES15 also has some noise reduction settings that may benefit from changing. You might also want to try both of the different S-Video inputs on the ES15 as I've heard that the behavior can be different from input to input.

[Lazer]

Okay, after trying to capture via composite from the JVC, I ran into the same exact issue, only the quality was slightly worse.

Then I happened upon a thread featuring Lord Smurf's S4800u recommendations for settings. Apparently, I had most of the features enabled that were designed to clean up the picture––it was in Edit mode, video calibration was on, etc. I followed his recommendations by turning nearly everything off and was able to achieve a much sharper image.

Overall, color is much better from the JVC, and it's a cleaner picture. However, the consumer Panasonic Blue Line was a touch sharper, even with all of the disabled settings. I'm now wondering if the picture from the Blue Line is oversharpened and the JVC is outputting a more accurate image. Of course I can sharpen in Davinci, but am concerned with achieving the highest quality image for archival purposes. One day I'll break down and get a 9911u, but in the meantime, this is eons ahead of the results I was getting with elgato and Clearclick. Looking back, I honestly can't believe the latter are so highly reviewed.

Take a look at the screen grabs and tell me what you think––Blue Line on the left, and S4800u on the right in all samples.

[Aya_Rei]

Looking at any halos I can see and maybe it's just that the Blue Line is over sharpening the image, the halos seem brighter and more noticeable if an image is sharpened too much on a VCR.

Granted to me it looks like you got some halos baked in from the recording camera, and the Panasonic is sharpening them too much.

I've dealt with recording digital content by recording my PlayStation 3's output using a Sony Hi8 camcorder and yeah, you're gonna get some amount of haloing when recording using consumer cameras.

To me the quality doesn't look like an EP mode recording where a Panasonic AG-1980 offers more detail than a JVC SR series VCR. I've done my own comparisons to conclude that, and with SP mode the quality differences are stupidly minor between brands.

[latreche34]

Definitely the left one has more noise than the right one, not sharper, just more noise.

[Lazer]

Thanks, everyone! I’m so glad to have the JVC. I know it lacks a TBC, but it’s handling tapes that my Blue Line could barely play, even with the ES15 as a chaser. At some point I’d love to acquire a 9911u or something with similar functionality, but for now, I’m incredibly pleased with this workflow. The Blackmagic capture, while unforgiving, outputs a beautiful, minimally (if at all) processed picture.

[lordsmurf]

I don't know how/when the rumor started, but "blue line" Panasonics decks are no different than other low-end consumer Panasonic VHS VCRs of the era. Those are mediocre at best, often having narrow tracking ranges, with overprocessed output. This is a relatively modern retcon to reality, within the past 5 years that I've seen.

The sad outcome is that folks like you are suckered into buying these vastly inferior decks.

If anybody wants an actual quality VHS VCR from the 90s, look no further than Sharp, or comparable Admiral (the Montgomery Ward rebadge of Sharp). Both JVC and Panasonic made many (not all) wonderful S-VHS decks, but pretty craptastic VHS VCRs.

[Lazer]

Thanks, Lord Smurf! I’m honored to get a reply from you after reading Digital FAQ posts for the past three months. I’m new to this, as I decided to find a VCR to play family VHS-C tapes earlier this year.

Regarding the Blue Line—it was the first VCR I found this year that actually played tapes continuously on my Sharp CRT without any catastrophic image issues. The first was a big name VCR DVD combo and the VCR portion wouldn’t even work. The second attempt was a consumer Sharp VCR that never played correctly after cleaning and fine-tuning. The Blue Line was the answer.

About three months ago, I decided to archive the tapes and went on a Lord of the Rings level quest to achieve the best possible quality. Without this message board, I’d still be lost in the Misty Mountains. So, I was using the equipment I had at the time before educating myself and upgrading to a workflow I’m finally pleased with.

I am amazed at the 4800u’s ability to handle tapes that the Panasonic couldn’t, despite not being equipped with a TBC. Any wisdom regarding this phenomenon?

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

It simply comes down to better internal build quality, especially for the transport. Consumer VCRs are designed to be as cheapt as possible. The 4800 is a "pro backup" or "serious hobbyist" level machine, with quality (and MSRP) to match those expectations. In 1998, the 4800 was about $280 in stores like B&H, Circuit City flagship locations, Crutchfield, and a few others. At that time, home VHS VCRs were $99 on sale. So you were paying almost triple the price, and for triple the quality.

That's a shame about the Sharp VCR you tried. It was unfortunately not in good condition anymore. These days, condition matters more than model numbers.

[latreche34]

In the 90's up to 2000's JVC used pretty much the same mechanism and 19 micron heads on all their S-VHS line up with minor differences, The big boys have the fancy TBC and Y-C processing boards, the little guys have a stripped down electronics but still good RF processing boards for both video and HiFi such as the 4800.