Direct digital transfer of VHS tapes to PC?

[Charles_I]

I've been researching this in the forum and I would like to ask how to transfer VHS to digital given my specific requirements which are:

My tapes were recorded on the following machine which is still in working order - some are at "fast" (2hr) speed and some at 6hr speed.
Sony SLV 900-HF - composite only, no S-VIDEO - boasts having a "Flying Erase Head"
- My tapes are mostly recorded from TV - some are camera transfers - so no commercial/studio recordings.

I have a DVD Recorder but I would like to get better quality by transferring directly to my desktop PC. I'm OK with an internal capture card if that's a good option.

My questions are:
Recommended capture card
Recommended TBC
- Previous transfers to the DVD Recorder required several adjustments to tracking, especially when the tape was stopped and started again - will a TBC solve this? Not sure what "jitter" means in the posts.

As this is a direct to PC transfer I do not need equipment with a built-in screens, as I have seen online.

Thanks
Charles

[lordsmurf]

Standard advice applies:
- quality VCR
- some form of TBC
- quality capture card -- not Dazzle, Easycap, Elgato, ClearClick junk

Ideally, for good/best quality:
- JVC S-VHS VCR with line TBC
- Cypress/DataVideo type frame TBC
- quality ATI/Pinnacle capture card

TBCs do not solve "tracking" issues. You either had an alignment issue with the VCR previously used, or an alignment issue exists on the tape (and required misalignment of a deck to recover the data)

TBCs are to:
- line = remove wiggles and jiggles
- frame = to ensure proper stability of the signal, avoid audio sync issues, allow capture card to function properly
You need both.

Layman "jitter" = picture jumping
Technical jargon jitter = picture wiggling
- Layman jitter is more often correct by frame TBC.
- Technical jitter is removed by line TBC.

The only variable is budget. I can refurb premium gear, and create premium workflows for about $4k. Or I can cut corners, and create workflows at $1k, $2k, $3k. Each corner cut reduces quality, adds nuisance. Essentially, more money = less fiddling, more/best quality. In the end, you trade money for time. Or more time (and headache, sanity) for saving money. That's just the costs of the tools needed for this task.

(You can also slum it on eBay, buy "working" and "tested" gear -- ie, not actually working, not actually tested, all lies. Then self-refurb it -- so more time, more costs, and still not capture anything. For most people, even self-described "good with electronics/tech", it's ultimately "spinning their wheels". That path rarely ends in somebody actually capturing, either in quality or at all. Seen it, too many times, for many years. Ultimate cost savings here is frequently minimal to negative.)

How many tapes?

I can already tell that you'll need the not-cheapest setup, based on description of the previous failed capture attempt. That's common.

So you already know how bad it can look. Let's help you dop better for round 2.

[Charles_I]

Thanks lots of good info here. Budget I don't mind 1k - not 4k for this purpose. Number of tapes, I'm guessing definitely dozens less than 100 - no idea until I look further. Some are old TV shows or movies which are all on YouTube or on streaming so there's no need to transfer those. But lots of them are good time capsule events.

Looking on eBay there are lots of types of DataVideo TBC. Which type/models am I looking for? There's matrix switcher and video effects etc. I'm not familiar with what is needed. I don't need to spend a lot of time or money on correcting artifacts or colour.

Similarly, ATI/Pinnacle capture card brings up many models - all cheap (under $100).

[Aya_Rei]

Ebay is like a casino when it comes to video gear, you're buying random listings in random conditions. So you're basically gambling on getting a "functioning unit"

And like real gambling, you lose 96% of the time

Feels like the only thing you might be able to actually buy on Ebay that ain't beat up to all heck would be a camcorder, ideally a listing that has everything (cables, chargers, batteries, bag, manual, etc)

I just bet somebody out there would persuade you to use VHS-Decode but my question is, do you really want to spend the $500+ and so much time just trying to get it up and running? All for the possibility of not even getting any usable results. You also gotta put up with it being stupidly slow and storage intensive.

Feels like the main question to ask is are you comfortable with electronics work such as soldering and working inside a VCR? If not then Decode ain't for you in the slightest.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

My tapes were recorded on the following machine which is still in working order - some are at "fast" (2hr) speed and some at 6hr speed.

Just be aware you will probably have more trouble with the slower tape speed recordings, both picture and sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

Sony SLV 900-HF

There are a lot worse VCR's out there than that model but whatever is used, it's best to have it checked and in very good working condition before playing valuable tapes in it. Finding a good tech who knows his stuff may not be easy these days but it can be well worth it in the long run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

Previous transfers to the DVD Recorder required several adjustments to tracking, especially when the tape was stopped and started again - will a TBC solve this?

Your VCR has automatic tracking but can probably be manually custom adjusted in play with the "channel" buttons on the deck or remote.

The VCR should hold its last tracking setting even when stopped. But if there are regular bad tracking issues going from Stop to Play, that could be a warning sign. The VCR may need some service attention or it may develop into tape damage.

TBC's can only fix some timing issues. They cant fix basic tracking issues such as white horizontal streaks or background noise in the picture. So much of success in this business is getting the best tape playback from the VCR before the signal reaches the VCR's own TBC, let alone the external capture card.

[Charles_I]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Ebay is like a casino when it comes to video gear, you're buying random listings in random conditions. So you're basically gambling on getting a "functioning unit".

Not true in my experience. I have bought all kinds of vintage audio and visual equipment and accessories on eBay without any problem. You need to make sure the seller has plenty of good feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Just be aware you will probably have more trouble with the slower tape speed recordings, both picture and sound.

Obviously, yes I am aware of this. The better stuff was recorded at fast speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

There are a lot worse VCR's out there than that model but whatever is used, it's best to have it checked and in very good working condition before playing valuable tapes in it. Finding a good tech who knows his stuff may not be easy these days but it can be well worth it in the long run.

I have a very good tech guy who has just refurbished the VCR. He knows what he's doing and it is now in perfect working order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Your VCR has automatic tracking but can probably be manually custom adjusted in play with the "channel" buttons on the deck or remote.

Yes it does have auto and manual tracking so it's not a problem to fix horizontal tracking problems when they occur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

The VCR should hold its last tracking setting even when stopped. But if there are regular bad tracking issues going from Stop to Play, that could be a warning sign. The VCR may need some service attention or it may develop into tape damage.

It might not happen now that it's been serviced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

TBC's can only fix some timing issues. They cant fix basic tracking issues such as white horizontal streaks or background noise in the picture. So much of success in this business is getting the best tape playback from the VCR before the signal reaches the VCR's own TBC, let alone the external capture card.

I get this now. I was hoping to be able to leave a tape to transfer without checking it but I'll have to monitor them as they go. I over stated the problem. Most of these tapes do not have tracking problems.

So, can somebody recommend some specific models of capture card and TBC for me to buy?

[Aya_Rei]

At this point condition matters more so then exact models, that's why ideally you buy your equipment from a vetted, trustworthy person.

Would I suggest I & N Electronics' for Sony camcorders for example? Yes because that is all what they sell, they also refurbish select models too.

It's nice that you got your VCR serviced but it's just performing as it should for a low level consumer unit. Probably perfectly fine for a tape rewinder/preview VCR. I use a Sanyo from TGrantPhoto for that.

As for capture cards, you probably would want to stick with the Pinnacle models LS sells..

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

Thanks lots of good info here. Budget I don't mind 1k
Number of tapes, I'm guessing definitely dozens less than 100 - no idea until I look further.

To me, this is like watching a train wreck as it happens. The more tapes that you have, the more important it becomes to account for all possibilities. That requires better gear, or the willingness to encounter numerous uncaptureable or bad-capture-quality tapes from using lower-end gear. That's just how it works.

Quote:

Some are old TV shows or movies which are all on YouTube or on streaming so there's no need to transfer those. But lots of them are good time capsule events.

The commercials are always most interesting. It's sad how many unreleased events and commercials are given poor capture treatment.

Quote:

Looking on eBay there are lots of types of DataVideo TBC.

Good luck with that. All DataVideo TBCs now need re-cap or bypass work. Some units have no known repair options, from interlace corruption, and are now just paperweights.

Quote:

I don't need to spend a lot of time or money on correcting artifacts or colour.

That's not what TBCs are for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Ebay is like a casino when it comes to video gear,
And like real gambling, you lose 96% of the time

^ This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Just be aware you will probably have more trouble with the slower tape speed recordings, both picture and sound.
There are a lot worse VCR's out there than that model but whatever is used, it's best to have it checked and in very good working condition before playing valuable tapes in it. Finding a good tech who knows his stuff may not be easy these days but it can be well worth it in the long run.
TBC's can only fix some timing issues. They cant fix basic tracking issues
So much of success in this business is getting the best tape playback from the VCR before the signal reaches the VCR's own TBC, let alone the external capture card.

^ This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

Not true in my experience. I have bought all kinds of vintage audio and visual equipment and accessories on eBay without any problem. You need to make sure the seller has plenty of good feedback.

This is incredibly naive. Why?
- Feedback can be gamed. It's easily removed. There are known VCR scammers operating on the platform, and they have "positive" feedback because they know how to game it. The gaming involves paying eBay for that removal privilege, as well as the many loopholes that cause it to be removed.
- 99% of VCRs, TBCs, and capture cards sold on eBay are sold by "flippers". They sell all kinds of random crap, and know nothing about the gear. Their idea of "working" is to see a LED light, and "tested" is seeing any quality of a signal from a ratty old store-bought VHS tape (Home Alone, TMNT, Batman, whatever).

Story time: I consider eBay good for parts. But the "for parts or repair" items are total junk, worthless for parts now. The best parts items are the lower/moderate cost "tested/working" units. I recently saw a cheap TBC, and suspected it did not fully work, so I bought it. When it got here, as soon as I opened the box, all I smelled was burnt electronics. The unit was not "tested" or "working" whatsoever. When I confronted the seller, he/she immediately refunded. What a POS, that person knew! Now, if I leave neutral or negative feedback, it can be removed, because I was voluntarily refunded (not via eBay SNAD). So feedback is a joke.

Sometimes problems are not apparent until after the return/complain window is over. It's especially true with certain model VCRs (JVC DD, AG-1980P, others), all TBCs, many capture cards. Then you have to spend yet more money on repairs, negating any "savings". Worst yet, sometimes issues are irreparable. The seller is generally a moron, and didn't know this. You don't have the expertise to know this. It's such a horrible transactional setup. The only winners there is the eBay seller/scumbag, and the gear repairmen. You lose, twice -- (1) more money, (2) still not capturing anything.

Quote:

I was hoping to be able to leave a tape to transfer without checking it but I'll have to monitor them as they go.

This is the difference in high-quality and low-quality equipment. With low-end gear, you have to monitor far more closely (babysit VHS transfers), be prepared for more problems, and just generally spend huge swaths of time on projects. You trade time for money. VHS capture has costs, period -- your only choice is with money or time. I choose money, time is more valuable. It's not like it's the cost of a mortgage, but it's just not the cost of a cheeseburger either.

Quote:

Which type/models am I looking for? There's matrix switcher and video effects etc. I'm not familiar with what is needed.
Similarly, ATI/Pinnacle capture card brings up many models - all cheap (under $100).

Not to pick on you, but do you not see how ridiculous this looks? Essentially, "I know nothing about nothing, so just tell me what to buy". Then when told, it's next "No, that's not cheap enough." But you don't know what the items even are, or the costs (current used FV or MSRP), or how and why it's needed? It's really hard to help this mentality. This always ends badly, I've seen it so many times. People often write me back, sometimes years later, and say things like "I was stubborn, but you were right the whole time, I just had to learn for myself, I should have listened to you and saved myself so much headache and money". Several of them are forum users right now. But, I digress, I will try to help you...

Quote:

I have a very good tech guy who has just refurbished the VCR. He knows what he's doing and it is now in perfect working order.
It might not happen now that it's been serviced.
I get this now.
So, can somebody recommend some specific models of capture card and TBC for me to buy?

You've already made you mind up to use the low-end VCR, so your hand is forced.
- add ES10/15 DVD recorder -- 50/50 odds (better than normal) of an eBay unit being fine
- quality capture card

You never mentioned OS of the capture computer, and that info is required for card buying advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

At this point condition matters more so then exact models, that's why ideally you buy your equipment from a vetted, trustworthy person.
It's nice that you got your VCR serviced but it's just performing as it should for a low level consumer unit. Probably perfectly fine for a tape rewinder/preview VCR. I use a Sanyo
As for capture cards, you probably would want to stick with the Pinnacle models LS sells..

^ This.

This OP is probably indignant to some of my reply here, but these things must be said/written.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Probably perfectly fine for a tape rewinder/preview VCR

I would not use that thing for rewind. Rewind is important and, for example, even Panasonic K mechanics is not the best. You need Panasonic G-1 for rewind. Very gentle. G-2 has additional motor and is faster, but speed is not what we need.

[Aya_Rei]

So then what decks do you suggest for tape rewinding?

All I know is TGrant is also selling those fast rewind Curtis Mathes VCR

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

I would not use that thing for rewind. Rewind is important and, for example, even Panasonic K mechanics is not the best. You need Panasonic G-1 for rewind. Very gentle. G-2 has additional motor and is faster, but speed is not what we need.

I agree on importance, but I don't have a preference for any specific model. Just whatever is least bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

All I know is TGrant is also selling those fast rewind Curtis Mathes VCR

By 2019, TGrant lost respect from many of us. In the 2020s especially, he has sold so much overpriced junk. For example, no-name $2 Chinese PSUs for $75, essentially drop-shipped ovens to bake tapes for 100% markup, or "tape rewinders" for $300. Things we know are bad or BS. That's on top of the AG-1980P repairs that re-failed way too early. Right now, he's selliny that low-end "Curtis Mathes VHS VCR" for $300 to rewind tapes. WTF is that guy thinking? Any decent low-end VCR fair value, for non-playing/recording, is $100 at most. TGrant was a Jedi, but became a Sith.

And "400x high speed rewind!" is not a good thing!

[Aya_Rei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

By 2019, TGrant lost respect from many of us. In the 2020s especially, he has sold so much overpriced junk. For example, no-name $2 Chinese PSUs for $75, essentially drop-shipped ovens to bake tapes for 100% markup, or "tape rewinders" for $300. Things we know are bad or BS. That's on top of the AG-1980P repairs that re-failed way too early. Right now, he's sell that "Curtis Mathes VHS VCR" for $300 to rewind tapes. WTF is that guy thinking? Any decent low-end VCR fair value, for non-playing/recording, is $100 at most. TGrant was a Jedi, but became a Sith.

Really only just bought the Sanyo to be used as a tape rewinder/previewer some months ago, that is it. Would have rather trusted him than some random Ebay seller.

I know to never buy the 1980 from him, it's cheaper to buy it from Aramkolt. Cheaper and better.

Heck whenever I need to pay him for maintenance, the total cost still would have been cheaper than buying a 1980 from TGrant for 2 thousand.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

So then what decks do you suggest for tape rewinding?

All I know is TGrant is also selling those fast rewind Curtis Mathes VCR

I use Panasonic NV-FS1 (I have 3, all serviced by myself). The first Panasonic S-VHS deck. G-1 mechanism. G mechanism moves the tape away from the drum for rewinding. G-1 is slow but gentle on rewind (FS200 has G-2). And I use FS1 in combination with ES10 in those very rare cases when everything else does not work for particular tape. It has tracking adjustment with knob. But normally I use them for rewind.

[Charles_I]

I only asked for specific advice about what to buy. Someone asked me if I had a price range so I answered it. It seems my price range is unacceptable. I also got a lecture about buying garbage on eBay that won't work, and then the discussion turned into a recommended rewind machine.

So, let's start again. Can anyone recommend what I should buy? Let's say my budget is unlimited if that's problematic,

Specifically

VCR - seems mine is inadequate although the picture quality is good enough for me
Capture Card for PC Windows 11 desktop - not the ones that are garbage - the one(s) that I should buy
TBC - don't think anyone has answered this other than to say what they do and don't do

Please and thank you.
Charles

[Aya_Rei]

Well it seems like with your budget that can probably land you budget workflow that would still be leagues ahead whatever consumer VCR you are using.

Learn from me, I started with a consumer Panasonic deck and a crappy Elgato Capture Card with it's built in software three years ago, been using prosumer gear for two and a half years and the difference is night and day.

I feel like we're just trying to get you to buy vetted gear from trustworthy people, that's what the Marketplace is for. But I ain't gonna stop you if you want to gamble on Ebay...

But anyway

VCRs - Ideally a JVC S-VHS VCR with a Time Base Corrector, LS and Aramkolt sells them refurbished. Aramkolt also sells the Panasonic AG-1980 refurbished but that model is more expensive, and also way more of a pain to handle when not in working order. Which is why Aram is doing what he can to keep them in proper working condition.

Capture Card - Probably one of the Pinnacle models LS is selling since Windows 11 limits options..

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles_I

So, let's start again. Can anyone recommend what I should buy? Let's say my budget is unlimited if that's problematic,
Specifically
VCR - seems mine is inadequate although the picture quality is good enough for me
Capture Card for PC Windows 11 desktop - not the ones that are garbage - the one(s) that I should buy
TBC - don't think anyone has answered this other than to say what they do and don't do

If you really want to keep that VCR, then it's as easy as
(1) get Panasonic DMR-ES15 recorder, for passthrough, to act as minimal TBC(ish)
(2) get my Pinnacle capture card

And that should run you $300 for the pair.
- The DVD recorder is generally safe to buy from eBay/Facebook/etc. If it works, it works.
- Get the capture card from me. This is precisely why I have those. Too many pitfalls, too easy to buy the wrong card.

However...

You'll probably be surprised at how much better VHS looked on a proper S-VHS VCR with line TBC. It can almost be the difference between "old VCR" and "DVD quality" (if you remember those pre-HD days). I still remember buying my first S-VHS VCR back in the 90s, and wishing I'd have done it sooner. It's not a tiny difference. Think driving a Honda vs. Ferrari, because you want to drive fast.

Of course, that has costs. For NTSC, junkers on eBay are in the ~$300-500 range, while truly refurbished decks are in the ~$1000+ range. Buy it, use it, resell it, quality gear holds value. It's just a tool for a task, no different from a washing machine, refrigerator or lawnmower. All of those tools cost money too. Lousy ones sold cheap at Walmart, decent quality mid-price at Lowe's. VCRs/TBCs/etc are not sold new anymore, while terrible capture cards are ~$50-100 new on Amazon (Easycaps, Elgatos, ClearClicks, no-names, etc).

VHS/etc conversion gear can get far more pricey, and nobody here is suggesting that to you.

Quote:

Please and thank you.
Charles

I'm glad to help you.