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Originally Posted by alwayslearning
Lordsmurf , I have quite a few VHS home videos that I want to digitize, and I’d really like to do it the right way so I can help my family preserve these memories before the tapes deteriorate further.
I saw that specifically Lordsmurf is one of the experts on the forum, so I signed up for a premium year specifically to get their advice.
Thank you for your help and advice. I really appreciate all the work and knowledge you’ve contributed to the forum.
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Excellent, and thank you.
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I was hoping you could help me understand the real-world quality difference between two options:
- Purchasing your full recommended workflow, including the VCR, TBC, and capture card
- Purchasing the refurbished JVC VCR you have available with built-in TBC, then using an S-Video capture card myself
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Let me break this down in two parts:
(1) what TBCs are, do, and kinds of TBCs
(2) the gear I make available, so others can get the best results possible
1. TBCs
Time base correctors (TBCs), as the name implies, corrects the timing of video signals. Analog video data is stored on magnetic tapes, which move imperfectly through VCRs/cameras/etc, both at recording and playback. These imperfections/errors throw off timing, the signal is mistimed. But video cannot be mistimed, especially in the digital era of capture cards.
Video has both visual and non-visual elements. Timing errors in either, or both, causes problems.
- line TBCs primarily handle visual errors, especially visual wiggles
- frame TBCs (or frame sync TBCs) essentially handle the non-visual, especially to prevent dropped frames, which leads to audio sync errors
- you need both
Or, for the math inclined:
- line TBCs essentially operates on the X and Y axis, inner-frame/in-frame, what you see
- frame TBC essentially operates on the Z axis, temporally (time axis), intraframe/frame-to-frame
- and video is an X,Y,Z moving image
So line TBC alone is not suggested. It is better than no TBCs, as line TBC does have some notional effects on frame timing. But, in general, it's not nearly enough. You will face some % of problems with only a sole TBC in a workflow. Lack of proper frame TBC allows mistimed video, and forces the capture card to "deal with it". Most cards completely fail at that, though a few are more resilient (namely the exact Pinnacle USB that I have in the marketplace). ES10/15 contains a non-TBC frame sync, which mostly just "bakes in" errors rather than correct them.
All S-VHS VCRs "with TBCs" only have line TBCs. No VCR has a frame TBC, regardless of any false claims you may come across.
Almost all "external TBCs" are frame TBCs (such as DataVideo and Cypress), with some lesser-known exceptions. A few models have included (and undocumented) line TBCs, but it was always very weak. In some cases, the line TBC was more harm than help, and the frame TBC only really worked with line TBC in a VCR earlier in the workflow.
2. VCRs, workflows available
What I assemble are known-quality VCRs, TBCs, and capture cards. The gear is also not randomly tossed together, but tested and tweaked (during the refurb process) as a complete workflow. This is done to ensure that no gear conflicts exist, which is quite common with video tech (or any tech).
For this conversation, I essentially have 3 items you are interested in:
(A) recommended JVC S-VHS VCR with line TBC
(B) Premium workflow, which is (1) recommended JVC S-VHS VCR with line TBC, (2) Cypress/DataVideo type frame TBC, and (3) recommended ATI/Pinnacle type capture card
(C) Budget workflow, which is (1) JVC VCR, (2) ES10/15 as line TBC, (3) Cypress composite frame TBC, (4) recommended ATI/Pinnacle type capture card
A is just a piece to build your own workflow, find your own frame TBC and capture card
B will give the best quality results possible from a VHS (or S-VHS) tape
C will give quite decent results for the money, far better than average, just not that final % of quality to make it look sharpest, cleanest, most accurate.
A/B is s-video
C is composite.
- Note that composite is not as bad as some people insist. Bad composite tends to be a statement about bad gear. Bad gear is bad gear, regardless of s-video or composite. But composite is cheaper, and cheaper quality items use composite. Bad s-video devices exist, and good composite exists. It's just that composite will be a % softer. Not blurry, not really fuzzy, just softer. It's not best, just acceptable.
- Note that HD upscale needs every pixel of detail it can get, so composite is not ideal for eventual HD upscale, and that includes Youtube uploading.
I offer the best pieces of workflows (TBCs, capture cards, VCRs)
And I put together (1) the best possible workflow, or (2) the best possible within constrained budgets.
However, for most people, this is not a "forever purchase". It's a project purchase. Buy it, use it, resell it. Quality gear holds value, junk is your forever. Any difference between buy and re-sale, if any, is simply the rental cost for some of the best hardware you can get.
Therefore, to answer this question:
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Either way, my intention is to purchase either the VCR or the full workflow from you, assuming that’s possible. I’m just trying to understand the additional quality the full setup would provide for family home videos, or whether the refurbished JVC VCR plus my own capture setup would get me most of the way there.
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Just going VCR > capture card omits all TBCs, and creates problems.
Or VCR with line TBC > capture card omits frame TBCs, and still allows problems to occur.
Or VCR with line TBC (or ES10/15 as external line TBC) > frame TBC > capture card omits 99%+ of possible issues, giving a problem-free capture experience.
Problems = time spent/wasted troubleshooting.
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PM me when ready.
Due note that gear is becoming very hard to find now, then hard to refurb once located, in these mid-2020s. So I only have 1-2 workflows at any time, and sometimes none. Right now, I have both a premium workflow and a budget workflow. (Ironically, the budget workflow takes me far more work to do, as I have to modify parts in addition to the refurb work. It's extremely time consuming, all for little reward.)
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Originally Posted by Aya_Rei
I'm not him but I've heard a lot from him so I'll try and get the ball rolling.
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Imo feels like needing an external TBC would be more required if you plan on doing more tapes in general and from different sources (different people, TV recordings, retail releases, etc)
Whereas since you're limiting yourself to just your family collection you maybe could get by. It really just depends..
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Frame TBCs can also be considered an insurance policy, to prevent wasted time on potential problems. Some people value their time more than money. We can replace money, we can't replace lost time. I can especially relate, as time for family and health is a priority.
And again, when you "buy it, use it, resell it", the money comes back to you. This method is cheaper than outsourcing the project, and almost always better quality too. Plus the safety concerns, where your tapes never have to leave your possession. Trust in others (to handle your tapes properly, and with respect) is not needed when you DIY convert your tapes.
