VHS tape to digital conversion better than Elgato?

[wessleym]

Hi. I want to convert my old VHS tapes to digital. I followed the directions of several online sources and bought the following:
1. A JVC player with TBC
2. An Elgato capture card (with S-Video input)
I have been messing around with OBS Studio, and my results actually seem decent.
Then I read on this forum (mostly from lordsmurf) that this setup is just bad. As I understand it, trying to capture video with Windows 11 is also bad.
I know my setup is not ideal. I would like to change what I can while staying on Windows 11. Downgrading is not an option for reasons I don't want to take time to explain. But suffice it to say, I would like to keep all responses tethered in the Windows 11 realm.
1. What capture software and hardware is best (but of course still not ideal) for Windows 11? I think VirtualDub and AmaRecTV are the two best options. Is that correct?
2. What capture card should I use?
3. This might be a long shot, but has anyone compared the output from using the Elgato and OBS Studio setup with the supposedly better setup of Windows 7 and old hardware? I wish I could see just how much quality I might be missing. This TBC JVC player is doing such a good job, and I am skeptical that I could really get better results. Still, I am open to be educated.
Thank you for your help!

[aramkolt]

The two I've seen reviewed with modern hardware are the IoData GV-USB2 and the Startech SVID2USB232. Both are available on Amazon and I suppose you could return them if for some reason they weren't better than the elgato (which they should be).

Video review was done here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcpbnU63_kY They found the Startech to be superior to the GV-USB2, but it did require some luminance level adjustment in the picture settings.

I haven't really seen the modern devices directly put up against the vintage ones, but that's testing that I plan to do myself and post results for eventually.

[wessleym]

aramkolt, thank you for your recommendation. I bought the GV-USB2, installed it, and connected it to my VCR. I installed AmaRecTV 3.10, installed HuffyUV, and configured AmaRecTV according to this guide:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...e-inserts.html
I can't see perceive any difference in output except that I can see the interlacing in the AmaRecTV video (which I think is to be expected).
I really thought I would see some difference in quality. Knowing that I've already completed the steps in the above link, can someone suggest any further tasks I should try in AmaRecTV with GV-USB2 and HuffyUV? Thank you.

[aramkolt]

Well, it's good that the hardware is working without having to mess with settings and whatnot.

Yeah, you do want to see the interlacing - I think where you'll see the quality boost is after doing deinterlacing with QTGMC mainly using something like hybrid or staxrip.

The main complaint I've heard when using the elgato for lossless is that they are more sensitive to timebase errors and horizontal wobbling than some of the other cards. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NuquTDhjGY at about the 10:35 mark. Could be that the JVC is correcting those issues to a degree where it isn't visible at all though.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

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Originally Posted by wessleym

1. A JVC player with TBC

Should be good.

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2. An Elgato capture card (with S-Video input)
I have been messing around with OBS Studio, and my results actually seem decent.

Most would disagree. You can easily do better, get better quality. It's hard to do worse.

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As I understand it, trying to capture video with Windows 11 is also bad.

The OS treats capture cards like webcams, and problem ensue as a result.

I know my setup is not ideal. I would like to change what I can while staying on Windows 11. Downgrading is not an option for reasons I don't want to take time to explain. But suffice it to say, I would like to keep all responses tethered in the Windows 11 realm.

Quote:

1. What capture software and hardware is best (but of course still not ideal) for Windows 11? I think VirtualDub and AmaRecTV are the two best options. Is that correct?

VirtualDub 1.9.x best.

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2. What capture card should I use?

Specific Pinnacles (not Dazzle!) are best. I have some in the marketplace, for this reason.

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3. This might be a long shot, but has anyone compared the output from using the Elgato and OBS Studio setup with the supposedly better setup of Windows 7 and old hardware? I wish I could see just how much quality I might be missing.

Many times, in various places, for years.

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Still, I am open to be educated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

The two I've seen reviewed with modern hardware are the IoData GV-USB2 and the Startech SVID2USB232.

That Startech is crap, and the GV-USB2 has various issues. Neither are great, just cheap on Amazon. Hardly the yardstick for quality.

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better than the elgato (which they should be).

Like saying hash is better than dog food. It is, but by how much?

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Video review was done here:

That's just an AI generated review.

[wessleym]

Thank you, aramkolt and LordSmurf. Is the Pinnacle PCTV HD Pro Stick (800e) a good capture device?

[lordsmurf]

No, not those ancient PCTV sticks.

[wessleym]

OK. You said here it was a clone, and I thought maybe you were saying it was a decent choice:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post43801

Would you please refer me to a list of good cards, including the ones you're selling? Thank you.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wessleym

OK. You said here it was a clone, and I thought maybe you were saying it was a decent choice:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post43801

Would you please refer me to a list of good cards, including the ones you're selling? Thank you.

I need time to write up a graded list.

You essentially have
- excellent cards
- not-great cards: various issues, gotchas, things to watch
- flawed cards, HD cards
- complete garbage cards: Easycaps, Elgato, the Chinese knock-off junk

Flawed and garbage are not grouped together because those can have low-need uses (Youtube clip grabbing, R&D, etc)

Stuff like Live2, GV-USB, are in the 2nd group, not-great.

Excellent cards mostly "just work", and with quality. Some have a "catch" that only certain OS are allowed, but there are good reasons for that (ie, converting VHS/tapes is a legacy 2000s task, not a 2020s task, best gear was made then). These includes ATI AIW, ATI 600 USB and clones, certain Pinnacles (noting that those models have both good and bad versions), some other much higher-end cards that MSRP'd for $1k and still resale high.

Win10/11 is big ask, but certain clones are reported to work with custom drivers (I need to try it sometime), and the certain Pinnacles.

I have select gear in the marketplace (here), as do others (though not for this specific need you have here; it's mostly other gear at this exact time).

Capture cards are somewhat like cars. You really can't go down to the local auto store anymore, and grab a part off the shelf for 19xx cars (even as recent as 1990s). Parts aren't made, and that's what junk yards are for, what online specialty shops are for, what eBay is for (but noting video gear from eBay is often a massive problem). It's not on Amazon, at Best Buy or Walmart. It's often not new.

Capturing video is a legacy task, heavily 2000s, when the best gear was made. If you want quality, that's what you want. The 2010s market was flooded with cheap Chinese junk (Easycaps, ClearClicks, etc),, and HD cards that "also did" (and poorly) SD signals. The 1990s is too old, infantile digitize gear still.

If you get something "new", just understand quality isn't there. It all uses commoditized hardware now, cheap components, often reverse engineered and vastly inferior. Overexposure, overcontrast, loss of details, crushed blacks, distorted colors, etc.

[wessleym]

Thank you for the thorough response. I'm guessing the good Pinnacle devices are the 510 and 710. Is that right? Is there any way to tell which of those are actually the good ones? For example, before you sell them, do you have to break them open and check the internal "motherboard" (if that's the correct term) to see if it has a certain revision number on it? Or do you have just have to try them out and check the result?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wessleym

Thank you for the thorough response. I'm guessing the good Pinnacle devices are the 510 and 710. Is that right? Is there any way to tell which of those are actually the good ones?

Yes and no. 510/710, but not any random 510/710. There's no an easy tell, if you're trying to find these "in the wild".

Unlike, for example, specific AIW cards (or JVC VCR models, or TBCs models like TBC-1000), I never say "yes, get __ model, works great!" because it may not be the case. That's the problem with long-lived (long production) items. VCRs, TBCs, and capture cards all have generations. Non-identical products (even if 99% similar) are given the same model number for SKU/sales reasons, and it really messes up us consumer. That 1% change can be make-or-break (like bad firmware on otherwise-identical hardware).

Even my AIW/JVC/AG-1980P/TBC-1000 suggestions come with caveats (condition, condition, condition!!!).

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For example, before you sell them, do you have to break them open and check the internal "motherboard" (if that's the correct term) to see if it has a certain revision number on it? Or do you have just have to try them out and check the result?

Yes, I have to open everything, and test everything. Not just a quick 2-minute test, but burn-in tests with actual projects and/or test tapes.

Everything needs thorough testing/vetting it the 2020s. VCRs, TBCs, even most capture cards. At this late date, even if numbers did exist (or even match), condition matters mor than anything else. For example, if you buy a capture card that was stored in 100-degree heat for a decade, the caps/chips are affected.

Random gear, random problems.

I enjoy helping others, and providing gear in the marketplace is just an extension of that. On the final balance sheet, capture cards have almost no profit. What little there is goes right back into this site. So it's a labor of love more than anything else. As some finance-minded folks can probably guess, the total include both profits and losses. Finding the "good ones" requires buying "bad ones" too. It's not 100% winners.

There are hints for what might be a good unit. But I don't share those, because then I wouldn't be able to locate any myself. And some people may start to try and sell those for random high numbers ($500 or whatever), and then the people with bad versions want the $$$ too. It's a greed + idiot issue, so I choose not to play it, simply keeping my mouth strategically shut. The status quo on Pinnacle cards is good right now. Everybody has a bad card until proven otherwise, and that keeps this model affordable, under $200.

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...

I can often tell when somebody is trying to milk me for info ("I want your gear, I just don't want to buy it from you, because I think I can buy it cheaper"). Note: I'm not suggesting you're doing that here. Because they want to DIY acquiring the gear, not just the work. That's a mistake, if you value your time and sanity. Even I detest DIY acquiring my own gear for my own needs, it takes a lot of time/research, and even failure (bad buys).

There's always stubborn people online ("I don't need you, I can do it myself!"), and I've had some claim "I got one that works for cheap at __". But then their samples show the obvious issues. The person wasted time and money. What gets me is that they had to almost intentionally ignore glaring noise patterning, stability problems, etc. Sadly, many excuse bad gear with "that's just VHS", but it's not the fault of the tape causing the problem.

People that claim known-good gear doesn't work are usually people that random bought items, and are the kind that knee-jerk make conclusions. Non-scientific myths/BS/nonsense is the result. Lots of FUD about good cards from those people, and they instead like the infamous "new" crap off Amazon. It's a not-good statement about them, not the gear. Stupid is everywhere, just look at politics and their flocks/sheeple.

After decades, this is easy to spot.

[Gary34]

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There are hints for what might be a good unit. But I don't share those, because then I wouldn't be able to locate any myself. And some people may start to try and sell those for random high numbers ($500 or whatever), and then the people with bad versions want the $$$ too. It's a greed + idiot issue, so I choose not to play it, simply keeping my mouth strategically shut. The status quo on Pinnacle cards is good right now. Everybody has a bad card until proven otherwise, and that keeps this model affordable, under $200.

I didn’t get that when I first started but that’s a good point. It wouldn’t really help the analog capture community to give that information out. It would cause a flood of bad cards and condition is a big deal. It’s not like your regular eBay seller is checking any of that or knows how to and buyers go through way more trouble than it is worth to avoid paying a few bucks extra on a card. Then when someone outside of the hobby hears part of some information they might put a ridiculous price on something without understanding all of the other factors. https://www.ebay.com/itm/31584228078...mis&media=COPY Those sellers and eBay don’t care about the hobby. The marketplace serves as a way to circulate good gear. The only way to get good gear besides the marketplace is be lucky and spend a pretty ridiculous amount of time looking. That time seems like a lot when you are waiting on gear to capture. The gear is expensive now and it was expensive 20 years ago. They don’t sugar coat that. I like the community though. Some capture communities are built on starting drama to create buzz to recruit more people to accomplish there goal and that’s just too negative for me to want to do in my free time. The marketplace serves a good purpose circulating working quality gear between users to finish there projects then the money goes back into the hobby.

[wessleym]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I can often tell when somebody is trying to milk me for info... Note: I'm not suggesting you're doing that here.

Right. I'm certainly not. It's just that I have several kinds of cards (four or five). One of them is a Pinnacle 710, but the picture is not as good as others, like the GV-USB2. That said, I can only get it to work in OBS. VirtualDub freezes when I try to capture with it, and I have to force the program to close. But I am running Windows 11, so maybe that's my problem. I'm curious if this Pinnacle 710 is one of the good ones (and I just haven't harnessed it yet) or the bad ones. But it seems it's bad.

[aramkolt]

Yeah, I don't exactly know how one determines if they are good or bad variants of the Pinnacle 710. Would love for a thread to be put out that shows what tests specifically that the "bad ones" fail. I assume it's something to do with how they work on tapes that have poor signal quality, if they are prone to drop frames, or have automatic gain control issues, but if it's the "certain known poor tapes don't work well with them" that isn't really a repeatable test that anyone can do at home unfortunately.

[Gary34]

When you think about it with this gear when there are different versions like this if it wasn’t for this forum we wouldn’t have an option to pay a little more and get the right version of gear. It would all just be random.