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05-20-2004, 03:53 PM
mitch mitch is offline
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I typed up the following a couple days ago while waiting on support site access. I am continuing to research new PC equipment and may have a few more questions as I continue to research.



I am new to video capture, etc. and have spent several days reviewing your http://www.digitalfaq.com (guides) site. I have also been reading http://www.pctechguide.com (lengthy site, but also very good information). I need to buy a new PC (for general purposes) and also have some old 8mm home movie tapes that I would like to digitize (to DVD/MPEG2), and I am trying to make good buying decisions.

I currently have a very old PC (200 MHz P1, 64M RAM), which includes the first version (I believe) of the ATI All-In-Wonder card. I have enjoyed watching TV on the AIW, but it’s not much good for capturing video on such an old (slow) PC. I am considering an ATI AIW 9000 PRO with a new system (probably P4 based) as this card seems to be a good balance between quality/features and cost. I have also researched and found that a set top DVD recorder appears to be a good option for capturing video (and perhaps overall simpler to use), although this type of device still appears to be quite expensive.

General question:
For a “newbie” like myself, would you recommend going “all-out” (possibly a relative term) on a new PC (2 big and fast hard drives, a quality TBC card, etc.) for the purpose of digitizing some old 8mm tapes, or just get what I need (in general) for a new system (I still plan to get the ATI card) and wait a little longer for DVD recorders to drop in price and more features to be added (I assume) and use a recorder for capture, then upload the MPEG2s to the PC and do authoring/menus and then reburn for final versions?

I am not really interested in fancy editing, mainly just nice quality videos with convenient menus. As I get further along, I may find I would like to do more things, but would not (at least not yet) consider myself a serious hobbyist. The 8mm tapes were recorded with a Sony CCD-TRV52 camcorder (nice camera when I bought it, but old technology now). All tapes are 2 hours in length recorded in SP mode, and the oldest tapes are about 7 years old. I’m not in a huge hurry to digitize them, but I know that with time they are probably deteriorating. The tapes primarily include family vacations (incl. national park scenic views, etc.) with high sentimental value.

Thank you very much for your recommendations and any additional comments/advice would be greatly appreciated.
- mitch
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  #2  
05-21-2004, 08:25 AM
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Video conversion is a double-edged sword. You have to consider both the playback and the recording aspects of the project.

With playback, buy a GOOD vcr. I prefer the JVC line of pro and semi-pro machines:
JVC HR-S9800
JVC HR-S9900
JVC HR-S9911
JVC HR-S7900
JVC HR-S9600
JVC HR-S7800
JVC SR-V10U

A good TBC (time base corrector may be needed, but don't buy it until it is really needed, which is to remove copy-protection on commercial videos, or to remove up-down jitter from any video).

With recording[/b] to DVD, you really have two options. One is the PC, which gives you limitless control over what you can do (editing, menus, etc). But it has a learning curve. With guides like ones on digitalFAQ.com and others, not nearly as hard. People just starting today are lucky, as I had no help when I began DVD conversion years ago when the tech was brand new.

Then we have a DVD recorder, which can be the very definition of ease (though not with all recorders, just some). Many of these have already hit the $200-300 mark and probably will not lower in price any more. I'm about to open a huge DVD recorder review section on digitalFAQ.com that will have more info. My top pick is the JVC DRM1SUS right now, though it's a combo unit, and I'm planning to take the non-combo JVC DRM10SL when UPS shows up today. If the non-combo works as good as the combo, the combo goes back to the store. (Combo meaning it has a VHS player internally attached, which is not a good thing). Contrary to what these companies tell you, editing on these machines is rough. Consider a DVD recorder to simply be a VHS VCR replacement, or a convenient capture device. Never consider it as a full video solution.

======

I would honestly say for playback, you should have a good 8mm player (even if its the same camera that did the recording, that would be fine). Then get a TBC, probably the AVT-8710 (http://www.dvwizards.com/shop/product.asp?sku=AVT5008 ... best price online I've seen). That should keep you set. If you want VHS transferred, any decent VHS player should work, and if you become more serious, and more hard-nosed about the VHS quality, upgrade to a more serious machine like I mentioned above.

Next for recording, a good PC would probably be nice for editing. It sounds like you need a new one anyway. I have an AMD-K6 233mhz laptop with 128 RAM, and it's fine for traveling, but would be horrible to use daily. Any P4 1.5Ghz or higher with 256 RAM (preferably 512MB), and up to 160+ GB of hard drive should be fine for you (be sure to get two drives, here I am suggesting TWO 80-GB drives, as you want to capture to one physical drive all to its own).

There is all kinds of budget and freeware sofware out there. With an ATI AIW card, you have the capture software already. Womble MPEG-VCR (MPEG2 edition) is good to edit MPEG ($99). AVI editors are a bit more expensive, but can do more. Premiere v6+, Avid v3+ and Vegas Video v4+ can be gotten for under $400 if you know anybody that can buy it on a student academic discount. eBay may have some used ones too for real cheap. Both should have free demos to try it for a short time. Newest versions is normally best on those.

The ATI AIW card is an excellent choice. It's versatile and comes with excellent ATI Multimedia Center (ATI MMC) software. As a word of warning, the other software that comes with it is terrible (Pinnacle, Roxio, etc), don't use it.

What kind of realistic budget do you have? That can help a bit when making suggestions.



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  #3  
05-26-2004, 03:27 AM
mitch mitch is offline
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Thank you for your recommendations. I will be playing the 8mm tapes back using the same camcorder (I still have the camcorder and it still seems to work well). Regarding my budget, it is pretty tight. I was a casualty of the Telecom Bust of 2001 and have been out of work pretty much since then. I am having to buy a new PC for some programming courses I am taking and also wanted to get what I need (at least the minimum) to convert these 8mm tapes. I will probably hold off on a TBC card for now and see how it goes, but I do plan to buy 2 separate hard drives (min. 80GB each). Any additional recommendations for free/low cost software would be appreciated.

I also look forward to your DVD recorder reviews being posted on http://www.digitalfaq.com. One thing I am curious about is would DVD recorders have features like TBC (of reasonable quality) so as to make it as effective (w.r.t. time, money, ease of use, etc.) to capture with a recorder as with a PC capture (or ATI AIW) card.
- mitch
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  #4  
05-26-2004, 08:15 AM
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The $399 (at Crutchfield.com) JVC DRM10SL is my #1 pick for recorders. I'm waiting on 2 new sticks of RDRAM before I start on the site again. 512 isn't enough when I need to multitask so much at once (I run 5-6 programs at once while making the site).

I've also got a $20 off coupon I can e-mail you (if you want it) for new Crutchfield customers.

PC minimum should be any Intel P4, at least 512 MB of DDR or RD RAM, a hard drive for normal use, and a separate hard drive for video files only. Plenty of case fans and a 500W power supply would be nice. That will give you the horsepower you need. A DVD burner of course, and then software. You can find an ATI AIW 7200 or higher card for under $75 on eBay. Good idea for budget minded person (be sure it comes with purple cables, don't worry about cheapo software it came with).

Basic software suggestions:
- To rip video (if using DVD recorder for capturing) use DVD DECRYPTER (you'll use IFO mode). $FREE
- ATI MMC (if using ATI card). $FREE
- Womble MPEG-VCR (MPEG2 edition) for editing MPEG about $100
- TMPGENC BASIC for demuxing (if needed) $FREE
- BESWEET for audio conversions (if needed) $FREE
- TMPGENC DVD AUTHOR (for basic authoring) about $50-100
- DVDit! PE (more advanced authoring, optional) now $400

www.videohelp.com/tools can show you where to download most of that free software .... I'm not sure if you've been to videohelp.com before, but it's a great place for learning, though a bit of a zoo for anybody that is new.

Build the PC yourself for the best price. Fry's Electronics is a great place to buy all you need (if one is near you), also online at www.outpost.com .. these days an excellent PC for normal use can be had for well under $1000. I built an extra one for under $800 and it does plenty.

A DVD recorder will only do MPEG2 (final format, advanced editing not allowed). Perfect for straight conversions with minor editing done in WOMBLE. An ATI AIW card gives more control over the video (either MPEG1, MPEG2, or AVI, and highly customizable settings), but if you're not going for advanced editing, nothing to worry about.

I get the feeling you just want simple conversion, maybe some minor editing of the video. Make your own classy menus, and you'll be happy with a new DVD collection.

If the day comes that you want advanced editing, that's when software starts to cost a lot of money (Adobe Premiere, Vegas Video, etc) and the hobby gets a bit harder. Same for video/audio restoration (expensive hardware and software).

Hardware thoughts:
- EMPREX/MICROADVANTAGE/BTC DVD +/- burner good and low cost, also one of the best drives for reading discs, good at CD burning too
- Don't buy a VIA motherboard
- I like INTEL motherboards when using P4 systems
- SoundBlaster sound card (even the cheap $25 one)

In time, you may still need a TBC for video. Go as long as you can without one, only get it when you need it. That's a good plan.



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  #5  
05-28-2004, 07:48 AM
mitch mitch is offline
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Thank you for your recommendations! You are correct in that I mainly want simple conversion, some possible minor editing, and nice menus (on a budget, if possible). I may delve into some additional work later, but it will depend on time, costs, etc.

A couple more days of research has me leaning toward the following. I have read and bookmarked numerous review links (most not included in this post). Most of the following is based on specs and reviews, not necessarily on cost. Depending on cost, I may have to make a few changes:

Processor:
P4 based system, probably a Northwood core.
Reasons:
Willamette based core (0.18 micron) tends to run warm, has aluminum interconnects.
Northwood based core (0.13 micron) runs cooler, has copper interconnects, proven stable.
Prescott based core (0.09 micron) runs warmer than Northwood, probably due to the number of additional transistors. Current clocking rates may not drive Prescott’s new longer pipeline to maximum potential.
Hyper-Threading: Unsure how much this will help. Some reviews seem to be very positive, whereas other reviews seem to imply it doesn’t do all that much (may depend on the application mix). Probably will depend on the extra cost. Curious as to if it tends to be more beneficial when working with the faster bus speed (i.e. 800 MHz).

Mother Board:
Probably will go with an Asus. I have an Asus in my current (old) system and reviews tend to imply that Asus makes stable boards. My understanding is should NOT go with on-board video (don’t need it anyway since I plan to use an ATI AIW).
Question: Would it be OK to go with on-board audio (many boards seem to include it by default)? My hunch is it would probably be better to have a separate sound card for capture work. Which way would be better for heading off A/V synchronization issues (I’ve read that’s an issue that should be considered)?

RAM:
Probably DDR or Dual Channel DDR, but more research needed as I am not too familiar with the different RAM types yet.

Graphics Card:
ATI AIW 9000 PRO. Seems to be a good balance between quality/features and cost.

DVD Burner:
Leaning toward the LG GSA-4082B Super-Multi, mainly due to the multiple formats supported. The DVD-RAM may be a good option for backing up general purpose files from the boot disk (as I understand DVD-RAM has error checking/correcting capability). I know the quality of the packaged software is probably questionable for video work. Also, I am not too concerned that the drive may not beat out other drives due to speed (as speed is a moving target anyway as it changes so fast). A review is posted at http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=226. Do you know how LG drives tend to hold up over time?

Hard Drives:
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 (8 MB cache version), a pair of either 80, 120, 160, or 200 GB, depending on cost. May get SATA instead of PATA since quick price checks indicate they are about the same (I will make sure the MB supports it).

Sound Card:
As you have recommended, a Creative Sound Blaster type (I also have one in my current system). However I will wait for your recommendation regarding on-board audio vs. a sound card.

OS:
Windows XP Pro w/NTFS disk format.

Additional comments:
I will hold off on a recorder for now and see how I do with the ATI card. I’m sure I will have a bit of a learning curve. A friend will be helping me put the system together (as I don’t have a great deal of practical experience). This is the same guy I bought my current system from. He used to integrate and sell systems as a side business, but doesn’t do that much anymore as the market has gotten so competitive.

Thanks again for your recommendations!
- mitch
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  #6  
05-29-2004, 06:15 AM
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I have an Intel 850GB motherboard with the 1.8Ghz CPU as my main system. I can run this system for 4-5 days non-stop (even encoding 3 of them in a huge batch) and it's fine. Only once has it acted up and I let it cool for a day. I have fans galore in the case, quiet ones that do a good job, case is well-vented (not a hot box). Your in-depth analysis of Intel CPU goes far beyond what I know, so do what you think is best. I'm a bit behind the times as it relates to some of the newer P4 flavors from the past year.

It is generally NOT okay to go with on-board sound. You are welcome to try it, but the potential headaches of making it cooperate are not worth the $25 it takes to buy a good SoundBlaster PCI card. Onboard sound often causes dropped frames and sync issues.

If you have the money, get RDRAM (Rambus). It's much more stable and runs a lot faster and a lot more efficient. But you'll pay for it. It's quite a bit more expensive than DDR, and the motherboard may be too. I have 1GB of PC800 RDRAM (4x256). That ran about $600, though it'd run closer to $350 these days for 800. The 1066 is the newer, more expensive stuff. For a budget, DDR RAM will be fine for you. I have DDR RAM in my 2nd system (my budget PC).

LG makes good stuff. I prefer the stability of Pioneer R/RW drives, but the LG is probably just as good if not better. The RAM aspect may be VERY helpful if you ever need to write/read RAM discs. I really wish I had one myself, I have to rip RAM discs the hard way (ISO Buster from LG DVD-ROM because it does not load a drive letter with files for a RAM like a RAM writer would).

ATI AIW 9000 PRO is exactly what you said.

I've never known a MAXTOR drive that has not crashed. I have one left, and it's dying (my primary OS drive, so I back it up often, going to replace it in July if it lasts that long). They do NOT hold up well under constant use. For that, I'd suggest Western Digital all the way, maybe Seagate as the runner-up.

Windows XP PRO is what I have on my second system. It's okay. I don't truly like any version of Windows. Whatever works is what I live with. My primary came with Windows ME, which works great, so I never changed it.

Between your friend and my guides, you should be set to start your adventure into converting video! Good luck.

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