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  #81  
01-16-2020, 06:45 AM
Okiba Okiba is offline
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Thanks for the detailed answer :-)

Quote:
Quote:
All USB cards do.
So if it has internal audio processing, it's less likely to have audio/video sync issue and I should avoid trying to adjust those from VirtaulDub?

Quote:
"Timing" is a broad term, meaning many things. In reference to that single setting in VirtualDub, yes, timing refers to audio sync. However, hardware really controls the sync, not software. At best, software can attempt to correct bad incoming (from hardware) audio, but that's it. You can easily lose sync from dropped frames, and that's the the TBC comes in.
Is it possible to 'align' audio sync issues post processing? just by telling the editor that sound should start +2 seconds after the video or anything similar?

Quote:
He's using an infamous Easycap (aka Easycrap) card, and then monkeys around with VirtualDub settings that will easily cause massive amounts of dropped frames.
So no 60FPS conversion :-) Should I do try to de-interlace the video post capture like he suggests? or that's also a bad thing to do? any post-capture filters I should definitionally be using for improving the base quality post capture?

Quote:
Due to my own health issues, I'm actually more interested in medical breakthroughs, but that field is sparse as well. We as a society right now really are NOT experiencing an abundance of scientific or technological breakthroughs. Most are just mild improvements on what was discovered in decades past. Video capture is really not much different, same basic processes, hardware and software from 20-25 years ago.
Sorry to her that. I hope the medical breakthrough your waiting for will show up soon. It's pretty amazing that the only way to get a TBC those days is by buying a very old device that no longer sell. First time I heard about TBC, I was thinking - "Let's just buy one from EBay". But I guess not :-)

Quote:
Most physical damage: bad storage, oxide shedding, etc.
So what would be the preferred storage? The kind that is possible for most people?

Quote:
Timebase correction (TBC) is not optional. Something is needed, even if minimalist TBC(ish) sorts of setups.
I was trying to find an example of video capture with and without TBC. The same video, to see the full impact of TBC. Couldn't find one.

Quote:
Yes, do so -- but in a new thread, not the capture guide thread. We're veering a bit off-topic now.
Sure thing. Will take couple of captures during weekend, and will open a new topic.

By the way, I found the "Cleaner" I was speaking about in eBay:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VHS-VCR-...-/372086323835

Is that a real thing? or have no impact on quality?

Thank you lordsmurf!
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  #82  
01-16-2020, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiba View Post
So if it has internal audio processing, it's less likely to have audio/video sync issue and I should avoid trying to adjust those from VirtaulDub?
It really won't do much anyway, if anything.

Quote:
Is it possible to 'align' audio sync issues post processing? just by telling the editor that sound should start +2 seconds after the video or anything similar?
No. It's not as simple as you're seemingly thinking. It's missing data that causes the sync issues, dropped frames. That cannot be salvaged.

Quote:
Should I do try to de-interlace the video post capture like he suggests?
No.

Quote:
or that's also a bad thing to do?
Yes, bad, ignorant.

In this instance, deinterlacing is like this:
You: "Doctor, my foot hurts, what should I do?"
Doctor: "Chop it off." (deinterlace)

Quote:
any post-capture filters I should definitionally be using for improving the base quality post capture?
It fully depends on the issues faced. Samples needed, in new threads, dedicated to that one tape.

Quote:
It's pretty amazing that the only way to get a TBC those days is by buying a very old device that no longer sell. First time I heard about TBC, I was thinking - "Let's just buy one from EBay". But I guess not
When it comes to video gear, eBay is gambling, not buying. In terms of more being sold, the main reason TBCs are no longer made is because the chipsets are no longer fabbed. And although getting harder to find, acquiring a TBC is not impossible. (Again, I have several in the marketplace.)

Quote:
So what would be the preferred storage? The kind that is possible for most people?
A box in the back of the closet works. Not a basement, not attic, not outside. Moisture and heat are the enemy of tapes.

Quote:
I was trying to find an example of video capture with and without TBC. The same video, to see the full impact of TBC. Couldn't find one.
I have some, but I'm busy. No TBC is wiggling in video, shimmering colors, dropped frames, audio sync errors, etc.

Quote:
By the way, I found the "Cleaner" I was speaking about in eBay:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VHS-VCR-...-/372086323835
VCR head cleaners are abrasive, and damage VCRs. Remember that some things are sold only because people are dumb enough not (yet?) knowledgeable, and so they buy it. Not because it's truly a good item. VCR head cleaners are one such item.

Clean a VCR only when troubleshooted to definitively be a case of dirty VCR heads. Too many people knee-jerk react to VHS problems, and needlessly "clean" (usually ruin) VCR heads. It's not something that will cure whatever ails the VCR. In fact, dirty heads is rarely the issue, although damaged heads is sadly common due to all the horrible cleaning advice found online (using Q-tips aka cotton swabs, using head cleaners, etc).

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  #83  
01-16-2020, 08:52 AM
Okiba Okiba is offline
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Great, so I will posting examples later on. Thanks everyone who helped!
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  #84  
01-16-2020, 09:38 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The quality of ld-decode already exceeds the best PAL LaserDisc player, if you factor out the effect of dropouts.

The vhs-decode fork has only been worked on by one author (hodgey) with Zcooger offering a few tweaks, I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
or TBC does more than just sync audio/video?
No, to all 3 questions.
Surely you mean "yes, it does" to this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiba View Post
I was trying to find an example of video capture with and without TBC. The same video, to see the full impact of TBC. Couldn't find one.
I already linked one in my previous reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
It digitizes audio, but you will get A/V desync with the VC500 in VirtualDub if you don't use any sort of TBC. If your combo unit includes a DVD recorder rather than just DVD player, you can try to engage its Dubbing mode to see if it helps.
The VideoHelp post has samples attached demonstrating a DVD recorder's Line Out correction abilities, referred to by Lordsmurf as TBC(ish).

Some other demos:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...s-showing.html
https://youtu.be/tMA5aH_olAQ
https://youtu.be/japFCgCVd00
https://youtu.be/qzF5dllTn-I
https://youtu.be/4ei4CQxUgPA
https://youtu.be/9_xue8-gGLM
https://youtu.be/ZPE8cOvgZFE

And a more subtle example showing correction of horizontal jitter:
https://youtu.be/1_Y1VvazOlk

Last edited by msgohan; 01-16-2020 at 10:03 AM. Reason: TBC samples
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  #85  
01-16-2020, 10:13 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The quality of ld-decode already exceeds the best PAL LaserDisc player, if you factor out the effect of dropouts.
The vhs-decode fork has only been worked on by one author (hodgey) with Zcooger offering a few tweaks, I believe.
Yep, ld-decode is quite good from what I've seen.

vhs-decode is also quite amazing as a proof-of-concept, but still hurdles to overcome for quality. In time, perhaps it will overcome those as well. At the moment, as mentioned in my VH response, it's about what you could expect from an Easycap card, via composite, connected to a consumer VHS VCR. But it has potential.

Quote:
Surely you mean "yes, it does" to this question.
TBC does more than just help to maintain sync (by way of preventing dropped video frames). Having sync is still not a reason to lack TBC. There are still other capture issues to worry about.

And all of this is getting off-topic to this VirtualDub guide thread.

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  #86  
02-09-2020, 09:27 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Hi i did notice a problem with Matrox MXO2 LE MAX it does not have any proc amp in the input only on the output sort of

it does capture perfect if i use matrox own codecs then i does not crush the blacks or whites it captures always full range but i can afterwards when i have already capture the avi file expand it or not like in this photo

but if i use Virtual Dub and use Huffyuv or lagarith i have to enable "Extend luma black point" and "Extend luma white point" then it capture full range

so does are good to enable if somone have bad card that crush the blacks or whites or not but it did work very good for me anyway

im sure itīs old news but i did not know it


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File Type: jpg VirtualDub_Extend.jpg (44.7 KB, 38 downloads)
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  #87  
02-10-2020, 12:56 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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But are there real benefits? The standard is yuv 16-235 expanded to rgb 0-255, capturing yuv 0-255 should not add anything.
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  #88  
02-10-2020, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
But are there real benefits? The standard is yuv 16-235 expanded to rgb 0-255, capturing yuv 0-255 should not add anything.
There shouldn't be, as VHS is YPrPb, essentially 16-235 digital equivalent.

However, after further researching complaints of USB cards clipping blacks, I was able to find underexposede dark scenes where some data was in the 0-15 range. So if you're seeking to restore video, you may need the full 0-255. However, you must be careful to output 16-235 values. However, in general, most footage has 99%+ of the image data within the 16-235 range.

My testing is still not done...

One of my hypothesis is that VirtualDub expansion settings should suffice for capture. Another is that Huffyuv may somehow be involved in clipping, and that Matrox statement from jjdd is interesting. Just hypothesis, must run tests to see what happens.

@jjdd: Not many people ever delved into this, or discussed it, so actually not entirely old news.

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  #89  
02-10-2020, 06:07 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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i have not yet test many tapes with my new MXO2 i did only have one tape that did crush the blacks if i did not enable the "Extend luma black point" and "Extend luma white point" in virtualDub maybe i only need to enable "Extend luma black point" if i did not do that the backs where crush i did try to pump up the shadows but did not help at all it was gone i put a picture you can see good on the top left corner the rings they are gone

i did remember that the old retail vhs tape of Batman was good tape to test because itīs very dark movie it was on that tape i did see the problem i did have to use External TBC to get rid of macrovision maybe that did something to the capture

when i capture with matrox codecs the avi file i can later switch between "Standard setting" and "Expanded setting" in the Matrox VFW Codec Config like in the picture i did post

it would be good if Huffyuv or lagarith did have that Expanded setting on or off so i can switch between later then i do not need to care if i need to have enable "Extend luma black point" and "Extend luma white point" or not


here is Matrox VFW Codec Documentation Page 3 and 4 is about the Config setting https://www.matrox.com/video/media/p..._Codecs_10.pdf


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File Type: png VirtualDub_Extend_setting.png (753.2 KB, 26 downloads)

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  #90  
02-10-2020, 10:11 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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You don't need the Matrox codec to choose those settings. They are the same as standard Rec601 vs PC.601 conversion in Avisynth, and they're the wrong way to correct levels that fall below Y=16.

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Convert#Matrix

Instead of fooling with the non-standard RGB conversions, you should adjust the levels of your captures so that darks you want to retain never fall below Y=16 (and brights don't exceed 235). It's the only way to guarantee they won't be clipped if you later view the video on a device that does standard conversion.

If you buy a proper, professionally authored movie DVD, it doesn't come with instructions to change to Expanded (PC) levels. It's authored with all important information between 16-235.
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  #91  
02-10-2020, 10:42 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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if i do not enable "Extend luma black point" and "Extend luma white point" in Virtual Dub then i have to use my External PA-200 proc amp to correct that if i use Huffyuv or lagarith codecs

my other capture cards have internal proc amp so does do not have this problem
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  #92  
02-10-2020, 01:31 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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From VirtualDub help file.

Quote:
Extend luma black point
Compresses the luminance range of an image so that "superblack" levels from 0-15 are scaled to within the valid luminance range of 16-235, out of 0-255. These levels are ordinarily shown as red at the lower end of the histogram scale and would be clamped to black without this option. This is only useful if the capture format uses the YCbCr color space, as these values ​​are already lost if RGB is used.

The transform is a straightforward linear mapping of the luminance values ​​from [0, 235] to [16, 235], if extend luma white point is disabled, or [0, 255] to [16, 235] if that option is also enabled.

Extend luma white point
Compresses the luminance range of an image so that "superwhite" levels from 236-255* are scaled to within the valid luminance range of 16-235, out of 0-255. These levels are ordinarily shown as red at the upper end of the histogram scale and would be clamped to white without this option. This is only useful if the capture format uses the YCbCr color space, as these values ​​are already lost if RGB is used. However, it can allow for recovery of very bright colors that would ordinarily white-out or become garish yellows due to signal overamplification.

The transform is a straightforward linear mapping of the luminance values ​​from [16, 255] to [16, 235], if extend luma black point is disabled, or [0, 255] to [16, 235] if that option is also enabled.
With the options disabled, no data should be lost, if capturing to YCbCr (YUV) pixel formats such as YUY2. Disabling them gives you greater control in post-processing; instead of the one-size-fits-all scaling you can use whatever arbitrary adjustments are necessary for specific tapes/scenes.

* This is me correcting a typo in the Help file. The original text incorrectly states 0-15. The author clearly copy-pasted his description for Black point to White point and forgot to change the numbers.
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  #93  
02-10-2020, 03:18 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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msgohan ok have to read more
i did get my Aja IO HD today testing it here right now it looks like Aja IO HD donīt care about macrovision on retail vhs tape it plays them fine have to test more

but on the Aja io hd i get the same problem as with mxo2 blacks gets crushed on the Batman VHS i think not sure yet
and i donīt find any internal proc amp on the Aja io HD on the stand alone program maybe needs Final Cut

maybe the retail vhs Batman is a special

other tapes i have test itīs ok no crushed blacks
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  #94  
02-10-2020, 10:14 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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msgohan thanks this did do the same thing as matrox VFW Codec config on does Huffyuv or lagarith avi files that was crushed blacks
when i did that then i can see the rings on the crushed black clip where i did not enable the "Extend luma black point" and "Extend luma white point"

not sure if that was corect done or not but it works
i did convert to RGB and then back to YUY2

Code:
AviSource("D:\movie.avi").ConvertToRGB32(matrix="PC.601",interlaced=true).ConvertToYUY2(matrix="Rec601",interlaced=true)

have to test if that works on does Aja io HD .mov clips i have done

it did work on Aja IO HD .mov files i have to use LSMASHVideoSource
i did first use QTInput and that did not work


Code:
LSMASHVideoSource("D:\movie.mov",format="YUY2").ConvertToRGB32(matrix="PC.601",interlaced=true).ConvertToYUY2(matrix="Rec601",interlaced=true)

Last edited by jjdd; 02-10-2020 at 11:13 PM.
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  #95  
02-25-2020, 09:59 PM
Unicron129 Unicron129 is offline
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Please let me know if this is not the place to post (new here). In VirtualDub2, when I select Compression>Huffuv, I see on the right that I can "configure" the codec settings. Should it be YUYV > YUYV422 or YUYV > RGB?

Also, is there a way to reset all settings for VirtualDub2? I deleted it, but the settings must have been saved elsewhere.

I'm trying to capture home movies that were filmed in the U.S. (I assume NTSC) and have used 29.97 as the frame rate. I started with less than 5% dropped frames and synced audio, but now the frames seem to drop in larger chunks (20 at a time instead of 1 at a time) even though the drop rate is still below 5% and audio comes in and out of sync. I used the settings suggested in this video (with the exception that I use Huffyuv) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_TDa9zY1c.

For reference, using the below:
1. Sony RDR - VX515 via composite and RCA audio to I-O Data Capture Device Using Huffuv to Capture
3. Deinterlace and compress using FFMPEG x265

Thanks for the help.
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  #96  
02-25-2020, 10:39 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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lordsmurf and sanlyn recommend against VirtualDub2.

I suppose "YUYV > YUYV422" should be a lossless pixel format conversion.

Settings are saved in the Windows Registry.

Sony RDR-VX515 supports VHS output over S-Video. Use it instead of composite. This VHS/DVDR combo no doubt uses a composite VHS signal path internally, but if you're lucky the S-Video output path will include some signal stabilization to help with your dropped frame problem (caused by lack of TBC).

Your workflow will still produce inferior results and isn't recommended: http://www.digitalfaq.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm
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  #97  
02-26-2020, 11:28 AM
Unicron129 Unicron129 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
lordsmurf and sanlyn recommend against VirtualDub2.

I suppose "YUYV > YUYV422" should be a lossless pixel format conversion.

Settings are saved in the Windows Registry.

Sony RDR-VX515 supports VHS output over S-Video. Use it instead of composite. This VHS/DVDR combo no doubt uses a composite VHS signal path internally, but if you're lucky the S-Video output path will include some signal stabilization to help with your dropped frame problem (caused by lack of TBC).

Your workflow will still produce inferior results and isn't recommended: http://www.digitalfaq.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm
Thanks for the quick response. So would I get better results with YUYV > YUYV422 (Currently using YUYV > RGB)? I'm not sure still what this setting actually does.

Thanks for the tip on the S-Video!
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  #98  
02-26-2020, 12:39 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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If I understand the options correctly, YUYV > RGB is converting the incoming data before compressing it. You definitely don't want that. Quality will be worse while file sizes will be larger.
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  #99  
04-02-2022, 12:36 PM
Matkori Matkori is offline
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Hello Team!
I'm absolutely beginner, and spent the last 1-2 month to build my capture station The details of the system:
VHS recorderanasonic NV-HS 950EE (TBC off, SVHS ON)
DVD player, Panasonic DMR-ES15
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 9600 PRO 64MB
Intel Pentium4, 3066 Mhz

I have video8 tapes and VHS tapes, what are copies of the "deleted" video8 tapes.
For the capturing of VHS's I use the suggested methode from this site: Virtualdub 1.9.11 and based on the "guide", of course to lossless avi.
My problem is, that the all of the tapes captures are ugly for me, there are tonnes of horizontal lines. It seems interlaced for me. As I sad, I'm beginner, I just started my project, and I'm looking for, that that is the max, what I can do for lossless capturing? If yes, than how to "correct" it on the proper way. Deinterlacing with Virtualdub, or it should be something different thing?
What is strange for me, that based on the Virtualdub capture screen (preview) seems better the screen
I saved some video 8 tape with Sony DCR-TRV 345E, using DV methode. After that I made capture of these video8 trough AIW. With DV the picture seems for me more smoother, sharper, without these ugly horizontal lines. But I know based on your suggestions, that AIW is the proper way. But I really can not see it yet.

So please, try to help me to figure out, do i something wrong maybe with the capturing, or it is normal, just I have to know the post-process steps. All the captured video8 tapes has this issue?

I put a picture from virtualdub, to show even after deinterlace is a mess.
I try to put video as well, but some sec is more than the limit.

Thanks in advance!


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  #100  
04-02-2022, 01:50 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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You really should have started your own thread rather than replying to the VirtualDub Settings Guide. Hopefully admin will fix this for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matkori View Post
With DV the picture seems for me more smoother, sharper, without these ugly horizontal lines.
DV can be properly flagged so that software players automatically deinterlace it. Unfortunately this isn't possible with the lossless codecs we use. I assume this is the main difference you're seeing.

Quote:
I put a picture from virtualdub, to show even after deinterlace is a mess.
Unfortunately the forum software is not kind to extra-wide images; it drastically downsizes them. Your comparison would have worked if you posted the two images individually. As it is, the image is too small to see what you mean.

Quote:
I try to put video as well, but some sec is more than the limit.
Ensure you set Video -> Direct stream copy and Audio -> No audio to avoid unnecessary bloat. A one-second sample may be all that you need to show the issue, anyway.
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