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  #1  
12-15-2016, 12:23 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Hi guys!

First of all I'm really grateful to you all: for what you've done and actually are doing giving so much infos on the VHS world, especially for me, which come from Italy where there's less than nothing about this stuff, learning a lot of new things.

Here we come: as almost every newbie on this Forum, I'm trying to digitalize an amatorial VHS bunch made by father. I choosed, as best approach to this problem, to use my old computer by putting hardware that would let me done the job.

My configuration is the following:
  • OS: Windows XP 32 bit;
    Motherboard: ASUS P5G41TM LX;
    Ram: 4 GB (even if XP reads just 2 of them);
    Graphic Card: ATI All-In-Wonder X800 128M eu with all its accessories;
    Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster Audigy EAX Advanced HD;
    VCR: Pansasonic NV-HS880; (which comes with DNR but no TBC for me )

I'm trying to connect internally my X800 with the Sound Blaster. If I understood well, the sound card's manual reported that AUX_IN is the ingress for my ATI's audio. The problem is that I do not find any 4 pin connection for audio on the graphic card: there're just two connectors where one is made of 6 pins and another one of 8 pins, as you can see in the pics which I attached.

Audigy2.jpg

I'm probably missing something because of my ignorance on this topic, so I'm so sorry if I'm doing a stupid question.

Thank you for your avaiability.


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  #2  
12-15-2016, 01:22 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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There is no internal audio connector on the X800. Among your cables is an output cable with several output wires (s-video, stereo audio, etc.). Onme of those output wires is a 1/8" male stereo audio plug. This plug is an audio loop connector that connects to the "Line In" input on the rear of your Audigy sound card.


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File Type: png stereo plug to Line In.png (281.8 KB, 49 downloads)
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  #3  
12-15-2016, 01:47 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Thank you sanlyn for your quick answer.

If there is no audio connector on the X800, do you know what are that two connectors on the card?

Continuing on my problem, I think that you're talking about this output, right?

15591686_10209819481277304_527140732_n.jpg

And so, following your instruction:

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Now, my new question is: I see that, on the rear of the 1/8" male stereo audio plug, there's a female stereo audio plug. Should I connect the audio source using it or just the two RCA audio cables that I should put here (with the S-Video):

15556041_10209819480437283_1865565806_n.jpg

Sorry if I'm looking annoying and thank's for the time you gave me.


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  #4  
12-15-2016, 02:00 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The red + white audio plugs connect to the red + white input jacks on the dongle, and the 1/8" audio wire goes to your sound card as well. You need both connections. The audio must enter the X800 through the input dongle, and then loops out of the X800 and into your sound card. Almost all AIW cards have this dual audio connection.
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  #5  
12-15-2016, 02:10 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Ok, perfect. In the end, as the situation is the described in my pics with the 1/8" audio wire into my sound card, I just need to connect red + white plugs to the dongle and I'll have my audio, right?
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  #6  
12-15-2016, 03:09 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Yes. Both connections are required. I tried to find the setup manual, but I don't think it exists since 2005.

In VirtualDub capture, set the audio source should be selected as your sound card's Line In.
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  #7  
12-16-2016, 05:08 AM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Even I have tried to find a setup manual , but I had your same success.
Thank you for helping me, if you desire I'll keep you updated on the progress of works.
Have a good day, ciao!

-- merged --

Hi sanlyn, I'm back.

During this time I've been busy with university and I didn't have time for test my station and see if it works properly in capture VHS recordings.

I've installed all drivers for audio and video cards.

Unlucky, I found problems registering with VirtualDub, specifically I can't register my audio source, even if ATI Multimedia - TV lets me do it.

I tried every possible combo in audio settings for let it works but none of them worked. In the pics below you'll see how is my actual configuration (but it does not work at all).

Let me know if you need other specific info's pics.

Thank you for the avaiability.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg untitled.jpg (36.4 KB, 19 downloads)
File Type: jpg untitled2.jpg (34.8 KB, 15 downloads)
File Type: jpg untitled3.jpg (40.5 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg untitled4.jpg (34.3 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg untitled5.jpg (34.8 KB, 13 downloads)
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  #8  
01-28-2017, 06:16 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Image 1 setting is correct.
Image 2 setting is correct.
Image 3 is incorrect. Do not capture lossy compressed Audio. Use "No compression (PCM)", 48KHz
Image 4 is correct

Image 5: Tone controls are a remnant of earlier Sound Blaster cards and are no longer functional. The equalizer feature has replaced those controls. Do not modify the tone quality of Line In. If necessary, make corrections later. Capture audio should not be altered.

Setting input and playback volume to maximum will cause distortion. Most settings should be at about 75%-80% volume.
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  #9  
01-29-2017, 04:53 AM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Image 1 setting is correct.
Image 2 setting is correct.
Image 3 is incorrect. Do not capture lossy compressed Audio. Use "No compression (PCM)", 48KHz
Image 4 is correct

Image 5: Tone controls are a remnant of earlier Sound Blaster cards and are no longer functional. The equalizer feature has replaced those controls. Do not modify the tone quality of Line In. If necessary, make corrections later. Capture audio should not be altered.

Setting input and playback volume to maximum will cause distortion. Most settings should be at about 75%-80% volume.
Thank you for the interesting infos and so for the fast answer, as always.

I've done corrections to the settings, as you suggested, but I'm still experiencing the same issue of no audio, only on VirtualDub.

I've literally no idea of what could be even because, as I said, it does work on ATI Multimedia Center.

I'm probably missing something.

-- merged --

I've just solved the problem. I had to set, as audio source, this one: "0 Capture Device". Now the audio is fine using the settings that you suggested to me.

Anyway, the video in VirtualDub looks more noisy than the one in ATI MMC. Is this because of a my possible wrong setting?

I'm using as video standard "PAL_B", since I'm from Italy. In the pics, below, I'll post my other settings.

untitled.JPG

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  #10  
01-29-2017, 03:44 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Some additional steps you can try:

By the way, after you set "Audio" -> "Compression..." to uncompressed PCM, note the additional values you should use for most video formats under the menu item "Audio" -> "Raw capture format...", here set for 48KHJz and 16-bit:



I assume you have the correct capture device set up in the "Device" menu. You should have a DirectShow ATI device similar to the one shown below, but perhaps not identical:



There is also one of several Sound Blaster masgter control panels you can check. The panel shown below is the Creative's Surround Mixcer menu showing the interface for the latest Sound Blaster drivers. This panel directly controls speaker output and was accessed using "Start" -> "All Programs" -> "Creative" -> "Sound Blaster Audigy' -> "Creative Surround Mixer":



Two tricks using the VirtualDub capture menus. Shown below are some of the main settings under the "Audio" top menu. Three items are shown below, including "Enable audio playback" and "Volume meter":



Enable audio playback: While playing a tape, disable this item, wait a second or two, then enable it again. For some reason with some capture cards, audio playback doesn't always start when VirtualDub capture first opens its windows and makes connections. Turning playback on and off gives audible results with two of the capture cards I've used. Other cards seem to start playback normally.

Usually you should turn off Audio playback if the results are dropped frames or bad audio sync.

Volume meter: To check if you are actually getting audio input, enable the volume meter display. It will be visible at the bottom of the VirtualDuib capture window. If you see no activity in this meter when when playing a tape, the problem must be elsewhere. If you do see activity in the volume bar, it means you're getting audio input even if you can't play it back audibly.


Attached Images
File Type: png Audio-Raw Capture Format.png (11.9 KB, 77 downloads)
File Type: png Device.png (5.8 KB, 76 downloads)
File Type: png Sound Blaster-Audigy master conrol panel.png (28.1 KB, 76 downloads)
File Type: png Audio Volume Meter.png (6.0 KB, 76 downloads)
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  #11  
01-29-2017, 04:37 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Two tricks using the VirtualDub capture menus. Shown below are some of the main settings under the "Audio" top menu. Three items are shown below, including "Enable audio playback" and "Volume meter":
My audio settings were coherent on what you've written. The trick, for me, has been this one:

untitled.JPG

By selecting "0 Capture Device" all worked fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
There is also one of several Sound Blaster masgter control panels you can check. The panel shown below is the Creative's Surround Mixcer menu showing the interface for the latest Sound Blaster drivers. This panel directly controls speaker output and was accessed using "Start" -> "All Programs" -> "Creative" -> "Sound Blaster Audigy' -> "Creative Surround Mixer".
When I bought my Sound Blaster on eBay, the seller didn't provide me of CD drivers. So I just downloaded basic drivers from internet, in which there wasn't any "Creative Surround Mixer" or others except this one "Creative Audio Console". If you can give me a link in which I can download those new drivers I'll be grateful to you.

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Anyway, as I said before, hoping this is not considered "Off Topic", I'm experiencing a video loss quality compared to the ATI MMC's one. I'll repost here my full Video Settings (PAL_B):

untitled8.jpg
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untitled2.JPG

For evidence the difference between the two programs, those are screenshots and video from the same tape:

MMC
Test5.zip

VirtualDub
Test4


Attached Images
File Type: jpg test22.jpg (119.7 KB, 15 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: avi Test4.avi (51.27 MB, 16 downloads)

Last edited by pyder1; 01-29-2017 at 04:55 PM.
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  #12  
01-29-2017, 06:03 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for the trick with your X800. There is always a capture issue that behaves differently with different devices.

The MMC version is uncompressed RGB24 with 44.1 KHZ audio (that audio rate is not valid for DVD or BluRay), which would be a huge capture file with problems such as clipped brights and other glitches.

The VirtualDub capture has dropped frames and appears to be made without a frame-sync TBC. Apparently you you don't have enough CPU power available for a lossless compressor, which is unusual. Test4 also has illegal luma values with badly clipped brights. The bright clipping and high gamma can be fixed later.

The MMC Test5 also has clipped brights, but the medium is RGB, so the clipping is permanent and can't be repaired. It's possible that brights are clipped on the tape -- if you look at the man and the water splashes, the brights have no detail at all.
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  #13  
01-30-2017, 11:41 AM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Thank you too for helping me entering in this new world! (for me).

You're right, I'm not using a TBC but in next days I'm thinking to buy a "Hotronic INC AP 41". A guy near here is giving it away for less than 40.

Anyway, I do not understand for which reason I have dropped frames in VirtualDub while in MMC all seems to be normal (to me). I tried to change video format in VirtualDub, and I had little improvements: I passed from 720x576 to 720x480 (still in YUY2).

I think the CPU Power is enough, I have a 3.20 Ghz Pentium Dual Core and while I'm capturing I'm using only 5% of the power (I checked this by using Task Manager).

For improve the quality of bright and gamma I tried to use the filter "Color Mill", as I've seen you suggesting it to other users.

I tried to do a little bit of editing using another Test Video. In the zip attachment you'll find the original and the fixed video. Don't be kind with judgments.

Test Video:
Test4.rar

P.S: I have been able to download Creative Surround Mixer, if you want I will describe how to do it. I had to extract an update for the utility found on the Creative website.

untitled.PNG



Last edited by pyder1; 01-30-2017 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Additional Infos
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  #14  
01-30-2017, 01:48 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I have the Creative Surround Mixer installed for years now. It came with the product disc.

Your samples are the wrong frame size for PAL video. Test4-Edited is uncompressed RGB, mif that's what you want, mbut uncompressed RGB would be many times larger than losslessly compressed files.
The work with ColorMill retrieved no details in the clipped brights. They are clipped in YUV and clipped harder when expanded to RGB. The brights that are there are simply darker -- no detail can be retrieved from clipped details. Clipped is another term for discarded or destroyed.
Vertical lines such as doors, door frames, etc, and the left border have twitter and wiggle. You need a better line-level TBC to prevent those distortions. They can't be repaired after capture.
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  #15  
01-30-2017, 02:42 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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So there's nothing I can do, as I can see. Do you think a Panasonic NV-V8000 would solve those issues?
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  #16  
01-30-2017, 03:15 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The NV-V8000 was made 27 years ago and has no line tbc. I doubt you could find a unit that still works. Here is a listiong of PAL JVC and Panasonic machines with built-in line tbc: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post37136 that are known to give a high level of performance. You could also keep your current player but add a pass-thru DVD player for line tbc. The recommended units are legacy Panasonic DMR-ES10 or SMR-ES15. There are many PAL models of these available at auction sites.

The clipped highlights can be controlled during capture by adjusting input contrast and brightness.
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  #17  
01-31-2017, 12:17 PM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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I found here a NV-V8000 for not much which still works.

VirtualDub do not let me use the option "Levels" due to my ATI drivers.

Circa 10 years ago, "Nuova Elettronica", an Italian magazine, sold a kit as "electronic filter for VHS & DVD" and people used it as TBC and for delete the copyrights from tapes.
I send you, in attachment, the project with schemes and infos. (It's in Italian, I can traslate some parts if you need).


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File Type: pdf Estratto.pdf (2.44 MB, 5 downloads)
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  #18  
01-31-2017, 01:28 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The NV-V8000 does not have a line-level tbc. VCRs with line-level tbc did not appear until the mid-1990's, years after the 8000 was made.

The contrast and brightness level controls are also available in the "Capture filters..." dialog. They should connect to the capture card's proc amp controls.

The device in the PDF claims to be a stabilizer, which can remove copy protection but does not necessarily provide frame timing correction. These devices are sold in the USA as "video stabilizers", but they are not complete tbc's. You can try it and see what happens. Many similar devices degrade the image.
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02-01-2017, 01:47 AM
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I have an x800 manual somewhere. I have many manuals, many CDs, more as ISO and PDF.

ATI AIW has 3 ways to connected audio:]
- loopback cable
- bypass ATI for sound card direct
- internal AUX wiring -- and the PCIe card axed AUX

You have the loopback.

Beware, the PCIe ATI AIW cards also have really crappy audio capture. And 0 in VirtualDub is the capture hardware (the ATI), not the sound card. Usually.

Audio also clips (distorts) so make sure the audio level is 50% (65%) max. Default is usually 80-100%.

If that guy in UK has another Hotronic for 40 GBP, and works well, let me know. It's not for me, but for another in UK.

I hate those hard plastic straps on computer, and always cut the off. You have on on the ATI bundle. Yuck. If you cut yours off, just be sure not to cut the wires!

"Removing" (ignoring) Macrovision does nothing for dropped frames. The DAC-100 will capture MV tapes all day, but barfs at bad frames. Homemade tapes are usually the worst.

I've never installed SoundBlaster's software on capture sytems. Never.

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  #20  
02-01-2017, 04:19 AM
pyder1 pyder1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The NV-V8000 does not have a line-level tbc. VCRs with line-level tbc did not appear until the mid-1990's, years after the 8000 was made.

The contrast and brightness level controls are also available in the "Capture filters..." dialog. They should connect to the capture card's proc amp controls.

The device in the PDF claims to be a stabilizer, which can remove copy protection but does not necessarily provide frame timing correction. These devices are sold in the USA as "video stabilizers", but they are not complete tbc's. You can try it and see what happens. Many similar devices degrade the image.
Thank you for the info, I did not know this setting. Anyway, the "video stabilizer" was just an idea because I was skeptical too about its operation as TBC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I have an x800 manual somewhere. I have many manuals, many CDs, more as ISO and PDF.
Hi lordsmurf, thank you for your help here. I would be grateful if you would find my manual. I'm discovering things on this AIW card just testing stuff and a manual would make things easier. I have, btw, the original CD with which I installed all drivers and utilities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Beware, the PCIe ATI AIW cards also have really crappy audio capture. And 0 in VirtualDub is the capture hardware (the ATI), not the sound card. Usually.

Audio also clips (distorts) so make sure the audio level is 50% (65%) max. Default is usually 80-100%.
You were right, I tried to disconnect the 3.5mm jack from the Sound Blaster and the "0 Capture Device" was still working. So I'm using the ATI audio crappy capture and I did not solve my problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
If that guy in UK has another Hotronic for 40 GBP, and works well, let me know. It's not for me, but for another in UK.
I do not live in UK, I'm from South Italy and we use Euro. So it's something less than 40 GBP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I hate those hard plastic straps on computer, and always cut the off. You have on on the ATI bundle. Yuck. If you cut yours off, just be sure not to cut the wires!
I put it there because the ATI bundle's screw (the one which needs to be tighten in the AIW card) is broken and that was a way for solve the instability problem.

Anyway, for you both, I need to choose what to use as TBC. I have those choices:

1) Panasonic DMR-ES10 (60 EURO - 50 GBP - 65 $);
2) Panasonic AVE 5 (50 EURO - 43 GBP - 54 $);
3) Hotronic INC AP 41 (40 EURO - 34 GBP - 43 $);
4) Videonics Video Mixer MX1 (40 EURO - 34 GBP - 43 $);

Which one would you take?

Last edited by pyder1; 02-01-2017 at 04:48 AM.
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