VHS digitization - going deep into the rabbit hole

[poenttoe]

Hello.

I've been thinking about transferring the old VHS tapes into a digital format. First time I tried to start the project about 10 years ago. My plan was to use VHS machine my parents had, and a capture card. Back then I had lots of free time, and my plan was to capture in lossless (Huffyuv) and later to do some post-processing and encoding with then-good MPEG2 encoder, CCE, to do final n-pass encode to DVD.

Before I even got really started, I ran into problems. Lossless captures always got out-of-sync during bad parts in tapes, or video cuts. My capture card was some Pinnacle PCI, can't rember exact model. Pinnacles own software forced MPEG2 capture, and deinterlace. I wanted to do 25fps interlaced (European PAL region). So I just gave up and postponed the project, until now.

I started to worry about the condition of VHS tapes lately, and thought I need to do the transfer soon. As I had bad experience of computer capture before, and I don't really have much free time nowadays, I thought to take the easy way; get a DVD/VHS recorder combo. After a little bit of research, I found out these machines are not available anymore. So plan was to get used machine from ebay. My only requirement at this point was to get a machine with variable/flexible recording time, to transfer VHS tape (mostly E-180) to one DVD with as good quality as possible.. So I ordered cheap enough Panasonic DMR-EZ48V.

This is when I started serious research, and found this forum, and rabbit hole got deeper. I haven't even got the Panasonic machine yet.

I learned about things like TBC, and after seeing some samples I thought I'm not going to do anything without it. I also learned Panasonic DMR-EZ48V is much hated model

After a little bit of research, looking for the articles about recommended VHS players and DVD recorders, I decided to get used Panasonic NV-FS200 S-VHS machine and JVC DR-MH300 DVD-recorder. So with these I should be doing pretty good? I haven't got the devices yet, but I started to worry about few things. I want clean video, I don't want to capture any OSD symbols/timers on digital video. Later VHS players did "blue screen" on bad parts of video, on some models, like the one at my parents (Nokia/Salora -brand IIRC). Am I good with these?

Tapes do have issues, as our old VHS player had bad habbit to "eat" tapes (not unwinding tape when ejecting, mostly).

[Bogilein]

Hello,
just a few questions:
-how many tapes you have to transfer?
-what content is on the tapes (tv captures, original tapes (Macrovision protected), vhs-c.....)?
-You know who was the original vhs-recorder?
-You wanna do some cleaning in post-processing after capture or just burn a dvd?

-the Panasonic FS-200 is often highly recommended (has a Line-TBC but not a good one)......most people who sell one know this and these means they are expensive like some JVC (9500,9600,9850....).
-JVC-MH300 capture only from 16-255 color range (no super-black)

[poenttoe]

Quote:

-how many tapes you have to transfer?

About 40-50 tapes.

Quote:

-what content is on the tapes (tv captures, original tapes (Macrovision protected), vhs-c.....)?

Content is mostly old tv recordings. No commercial (aka. pre-recorded) tapes with macrovision. Some VHS-C -> VHS copies of home recordings (originals do not exist anymore )

Quote:

-You know who was the original vhs-recorder?

There's various sources. Mostly by our old VCR (RIP). Totally there is less than 5 different recorders.

Quote:

-You wanna do some cleaning in post-processing after capture or just burn a dvd?

I think post-processing is something I need to give up at this point, mainly because of time issues, and I'm aware of losing possibility for post-processing with the workflow I'm planning. I'm just afraid of audio sync issues if I would try to capture to computer.

Quote:

-the Panasonic FS-200 is often highly recommended (has a Line-TBC but not a good one)......most people who sell one know this and these means they are expensive like some JVC (9500,9600,9850....).
-JVC-MH300 capture only from 16-255 color range (no super-black)

Using some money is not really an issue. I'm not on very tight budget. Another DVD-recorder with full color range would be nice touch, is LSI chipset still the preferred one? Is 16-255 color range JVC feature or LSI feature? Is this narrower color range really an issue with VHS (mostly PAL tv-channels) sources?

JVC 9500/9600/9850 was in my mind also when looking for options, I got FS-200 way cheaper than any of JVC models. And after seeing some capture samples FS-200 vs. JVC HR-S9600, FS-200 had more pleasing image to my eyes.

[Bogilein]

Hello,

I read you wanna capture with the dvd recorder.

I just read the manual instructions for the JVC today. I know it has a good jitter corrction. Not so good as the Panasonic ES-10 but better as most other dvd recorders (I had the JVC DR-MH10). Without the super black color range you lost some details in the dark area. I'm not sure about the LSI and what should it do. Maybe some noise reduction, chroma.... You can't choose any settings for recording and the highest bitrate for dvd would be the xp mode.
I would buy a Sony dvd recorder for example: Sony RDR 870,970,1070 or RDR 680,780,785,980,1080. They will give you a satisfying results for the jitter correction and record in the highest mode (hq+) and then remove the harddisk (you can't copy the hq+ mpg files to any disc) and follow this thread here on digital faq:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/7891-dvd-recorder-pass.html

After you have the mpg-files on your pc I recommend to use Selurs "Hybrid" encode tool. It have avisynth filters included and you can crop the headswitchnoise on the bottom, make some noise reduction if necessary, correct the color shift and many other things you wanna do and then encode it to mkv,mp4 or anything else to reduce the filesize.

If the jitter correction from one of the sony isn't good enough for some tapes use the JVC or a Panasonic ES10 in passthrough mode and then capture with one of the sony recorders.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

I just read the manual instructions for the JVC today. I know it has a good jitter corrction.

No, it does nothing for jitter -- neither technical (timing, what line TBCs fix) or layman (vertical up/down bouncing).

Quote:

Not so good as the Panasonic ES-10 but better as most other dvd recorders

The Panasonic DMR-ES10 and ES15 are unique, able to correct some errors, notably tearing. But these are still not TBCs, do not fix layman jitter, and only some technical jitter. And it has other side effects (posterization, slight ghosting, etc), and is ill-suited for using on all tapes. Only use it for fixing tearing, or some other unique bad tape errors than cannot be fixed in a quality S-VHS VCR.

Quote:

I'm not sure about the LSI and what should it do. Maybe some noise reduction, chroma....

It makes DVDs that look better than the original tape. As with the ES10/ES15 (unique anti-tearing filters), LSI chips are unique for reducing grain and removing chroma noise. Most DVD recorders actually reduce the already-crummy quality of the VHS tape, and encode all the VCR/tape noise permanently into the digitized signal.

Quote:

You can't choose any settings for recording and the highest bitrate for dvd would be the xp mode.

That's not true. While it has the usual XP, SP, LP, EP modes, it also has FR. The JVC properly uses bitrate:resolution ratios, so you jump to 352x480 MPEG when bitrate hits the 3500 range. I often using FR175 for 3-hour 352x480 DVDs that look better than the tapes. I've talked about this for 15 years now. (These days, I make less DVDs, opting for SD BD-spec 15mbps MPEG, or lossless for restoration. But it's because I saved the worst for last, and long ago made my excellent quality DVDs for tape.)

Quote:

I would buy a Sony dvd recorder for example: Sony RDR 870,970,1070 or RDR 680,780,785,980,1080. They will give you a satisfying results for the jitter correction and record in the highest mode (hq+) and then remove the harddisk (you can't copy the hq+ mpg files to any disc) and follow this thread here on digital faq:

The recording quality of Sony is full of grain noise. They used some pretty lousy chipsets to encode with. At worst, I'd opt for an RCA using the Zoran chipset. But for tape, it still will not clean up grain and chroma. And that noise will further cause the encode to create noise. Some scenes will literally be all blocks, like picture made of Lego.

Quote:

After you have the mpg-files on your pc

There are guides on this site for extracting MPEG (DVD Decrypter), editing losslessly (Womble or VideoReDo), and reauthoring to an edited disc. I'd never advise capturing DVD then converting to another lossy format like H.264 (which is what Hybrid is for).

[Bogilein]

First, I must say english isn't my native language and maybe something is misunderstood.

JVC MH300: Of course you can choose different bitrate for encoding but the highest bitrate is the XP Mode. FR60 is similar to the XP Mode and recording to only half resolution (FR175) if LSI chip or not couldn't be a good choice.
I had read the manual today again and you can't choose any setting for the LSI chip, but no tape have the same noise. You must live with the result that the LSI chip gives. I agree that noise is every mpg encoders death, that's why I have proposed one of the Sony Recorders (I don't know if these recorders have been relaesed in the USA), they can record with 15mbps (hq+ mode). Unfortunately you can't burn this to a disc from the harddrive. That's why I have proposed to remove the harddisk as the user themaster1 had done in this thread:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...rder-pass.html

and after this I would clean,crop .....and then encode the 15mbps file to mp4, mkv... Unfortunately the color shift can't be corrected for 100% because of the mpg encoding.

Why Selurs "Hybrid"? It's always a pain to collect all necassary scripts,dll... for avisynth. You got them all with the downlaod and it does the scripting of the avisynth script for the filter you will use,too.

[poenttoe]

Rabbit hole is getting deeper. For past couple of weeks I've been trying to capture VHS tapes to DVD with Panasonic FS200 and JVC DR-MH300 DVD-recorder, and Panasonic DMR-EZ48 VHS+DVD combo.

I'm happy with the quality I get with FS200+DR-MH300, but I get some lag and/or lost frames couple of times every minute.

Panasonic DMR-EZ48 makes 720x576 captures and quality is very bad in scenes with lots of movement.

So, I thought I've put enough money on the project, and thought I'm not going to use any DVD-recorder box anymore, and ordered Hauppauge USB-Live2 stick. I hope I'll get better results with it.

I'm going to capture lossless huffyuv and then make experiments with filters and stuff, and hope I'll make decent quality DVD (or SD Blu-Ray) without any audio sync issues I previously had with Pinnacle 500 PCI capture card and VCR without TBC.

[themaster1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

I'm going to capture lossless huffyuv and then make experiments with filters and stuff, and hope I'll make decent quality DVD (or SD Blu-Ray) without any audio sync issues I previously had with Pinnacle 500 PCI capture card and VCR without TBC.

You will have A/V desync issues that is for sure especially on long captures (+30min)

Some canopus advc have locked audio (less prone to a/v desync) but it's not lossless

[poenttoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

You will have A/V desync issues that is for sure especially on long captures (+30min)

Some canopus advc have locked audio (less prone to a/v desync) but it's not lossless

Oh. Somehow I understood using TBC would be solution for the A/V sync issues. Oh well, if everything else fails, seems I need to go with DV-devices.

[poenttoe]

Hmm.. So I've got another idea while looking for DV capture devices. Now when I have all these DVD-recorder boxes.. And they've got a HDMI out. Would set it to output 576i and capture it somehow on computer.

Would it solve the problem to use HDMI capture device instead?

My idea would be Panasonic FS200 S-Video out -> JVC DR-MH300 S-video in -> JVC-DRMH300 HDMI out -> Capture device HDMI in

Or would such an attempt be just asking for more trouble?

If this seems a good idea, any recommendations for the capture device? As it's HDMI, IMO it can't really matter that much, right?

[themaster1]

if your dvd recorder has a hard drive you can extract the videos directly, it's not easy but doable.

I've searched infos on this hdmi matter recently but i still don't understand if one can acquire the digital stream (bit for bit) or if it's just another analog <> digital scheme. One thing you need is a splitter (to remove hdcp protection). hdmi capture devices and they're quite expensive.

I think you're best option really is a canopus advc given that you work with Pal (4.2.0) (the canopus advc 300 includes noise reduction, basic colors correct, Locked audio.) . I think some models can do dvcpro (4.2.2) these may be more interesting if you're all about quality

[hodgey]

The desync issues could be partly due to down to capture settings, so you may want to tinker with it.

There are some forum members here that have used the DVD-recorder -> HDMI method of capturing, though with some Panasonic dvd-recorder models.

Alternatively, you could try with a DVD-recorder that does analog passthrough, as some of them can be found for reasonably cheap, no idea whether the JVC does or not.

[poenttoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Alternatively, you could try with a DVD-recorder that does analog passthrough, as some of them can be found for reasonably cheap, no idea whether the JVC does or not.

Actually JVC does seems to output DV. Not directly from AV inputs but AV in->HDD (in DV mode) captures. I've replaced HDD for it, so I'll try if it works better now. Original one didn't sound so healthy, and dropouts/lag appeared when HDD made sounds, from read and/or write operation apparently. If the JVC recorder is working now, I guess I'll do some experiments (comparing quality) and think if I'll go for DV or direct to DVD.

I don't know if JVC does passthrough. Do you mean that it can input from analog source and output image from that analog source? I can view image put to AV input on TV with analog (tried only with SCART) or HDMI, I don't know what kind of processing there is in between.. I would understand "passthrough" as unaltered image.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

My plan was to use VHS machine my parents had

Unless they had an S-VHS deck with TBC, not a good idea.

Quote:

and my plan was to capture in lossless (Huffyuv) and later to do some post-processing and encoding with then-good MPEG2 encoder, CCE, to do final n-pass encode to DVD.

Never a CCE fan, but otherwise a good plan.

Quote:

Before I even got really started, I ran into problems. Lossless captures always got out-of-sync during bad parts in tapes, or video cuts.

Usually due to dropped frames, lack of TBC. Sometimes system I/O, and secondary HDD (now SSD) is usually needed.

Quote:

My capture card was some Pinnacle PCI, can't rember exact model. Pinnacles own software forced MPEG2 capture, and deinterlace. I wanted to do 25fps interlaced (European PAL region).

Save for a few specific models, most Pinnacle was lousy.

Quote:

So I just gave up and postponed the project, until now.

Don't feel bad. Some of what I wanted to do wasn't even possible until more recent years, which is why I'm still slogging away at personal/hobby video many years later.

Quote:

I started to worry about the condition of VHS tapes lately, and thought I need to do the transfer soon.

Tape lifespan is about 35-65 years, not the BS you read on some "give us your money now because the tapes are exploding in the closet" sites.

Quote:

As I had bad experience of computer capture before, and I don't really have much free time nowadays, I thought to take the easy way; get a DVD/VHS recorder combo. After a little bit of research, I found out these machines are not available anymore. So plan was to get used machine from ebay. My only requirement at this point was to get a machine with variable/flexible recording time, to transfer VHS tape (mostly E-180) to one DVD with as good quality as possible..

I have the option to do lossless, or Bluray/broadcast spec MPEG (including burning to BD-R), but I still make some DVDs. The reason is simple: it looks excellent for VHS, and is cleaned up by the LSI chips to look very nice, even on large HDTVs.

Quote:

So I ordered cheap enough Panasonic DMR-EZ48V.

Not a good choice. What you want is a LSI-based (encoding chipset) DVD recorder.

Quote:

This is when I started serious research, and found this forum, and rabbit hole got deeper. I haven't even got the Panasonic machine yet.

That rabbit hole is bottomhole. You need a guide. And that's why you're posting.

Quote:

I learned about things like TBC, and after seeing some samples I thought I'm not going to do anything without it. I also learned Panasonic DMR-EZ48V is much hated model

Even failures and mistaken are progress.

Quote:

After a little bit of research, looking for the articles about recommended VHS players and DVD recorders, I decided to get used Panasonic NV-FS200 S-VHS machine and JVC DR-MH300 DVD-recorder. So with these I should be doing pretty good?

Better than good -- excellent, outstanding.

Quote:

I haven't got the devices yet, but I started to worry about few things. I want clean video, I don't want to capture any OSD symbols/timers on digital video. Later VHS players did "blue screen" on bad parts of video, on some models, like the one at my parents (Nokia/Salora -brand IIRC). Am I good with these?

All JVC S-VHS decks allow blue screen and overlay/superimpose to be turned off. And Panasonic S-VHS doesn't have any to begin with (from what I've seen through the years).

Quote:

Tapes do have issues, as our old VHS player had bad habbit to "eat" tapes (not unwinding tape when ejecting, mostly).

This is usually a transport/ingest issue. Consumer VCRs were junk. Pro VCRs don't often have those issues, unless it's out of spec/maintenance. (Most JVC S-VHS VCRs also hate the VHS-C format, and love to eat those flimsy things.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

Hello,
just a few questions:
-how many tapes you have to transfer?
-what content is on the tapes (tv captures, original tapes (Macrovision protected), vhs-c.....)?
-You know who was the original vhs-recorder?
-You wanna do some cleaning in post-processing after capture or just burn a dvd?

All good questions.

Quote:

-the Panasonic FS-200 is often highly recommended (has a Line-TBC but not a good one)......most people who sell one know this and these means they are expensive like some JVC (9500,9600,9850....).

The NV-FS200 TBC is fine, similar to the AG-1980P (NTSC). The NV-HS1000 is more liked. Sort of like certain JVC models (example: HR-S7600 vs HR-S9600), where there is a small quality difference. But both are excellent, especially compared to most other VCRs.

Quote:

-JVC-MH300 capture only from 16-255 color range (no super-black)

The DR-MH300 should be 0-255 for PAL. The NTSC JVC has the slight IRE offset, though not as bad as +16, and measures more like +8 or so (+/-).

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

About 40-50 tapes.
Content is mostly old tv recordings. No commercial (aka. pre-recorded) tapes with macrovision.
There's various sources. Mostly by our old VCR (RIP). Totally there is less than 5 different recorders.

Nothing unusual here.

Quote:

Some VHS-C -> VHS copies of home recordings (originals do not exist anymore)

Oops. Common mistake. I even did that for 4-5 tapes, way back in the late 80s or early 90s. Thankfully no more, just a few.

Quote:

I think post-processing is something I need to give up at this point, mainly because of time issues, and I'm aware of losing possibility for post-processing with the workflow I'm planning.

The hardware does it for you: better S-VHS deck, line/field TBC in VCR, LSI chips in a recorder.
You're missing a full frame TBC. So sync errors can still potentially happen. The main reason for sync loss is dropped frames, and even DVD recorders can bake in dropped frames. Just something to be aware of. A DVD recorder workflow with homemade tapes, especially with Panasonic field TBC, can sometimes remove its need.

Quote:

Using some money is not really an issue. I'm not on very tight budget. Another DVD-recorder with full color range would be nice touch, is LSI chipset still the preferred one? Is 16-255 color range JVC feature or LSI feature? Is this narrower color range really an issue with VHS (mostly PAL tv-channels) sources?

If funds not main concern, get that JVC HDD MH30 or MH300. Those are nice. Only PAL has 300. The 10/30 is 1st-gen JVC LSI, while 100/300 is 2nd-gen. Not a huge quality leap, but some tiny improvements in mosquito noise suppression.

Quote:

JVC 9500/9600/9850 was in my mind also when looking for options, I got FS-200 way cheaper than any of JVC models. And after seeing some capture samples FS-200 vs. JVC HR-S9600, FS-200 had more pleasing image to my eyes.

In PAL, you have less VCRs in stock, but they are often in much better shape than what you find in NTSC/USA. Here, most stuff on eBay is broken, fubar, junk. In Europe, more than half is nice. But importing to USA is a PITA, as most sellers refuse to ship outside of even their own country (UK only, Germany only), so proxy is required,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

First, I must say english isn't my native language and maybe something is misunderstood.

Seems fine to me.

Quote:

JVC MH300: Of course you can choose different bitrate for encoding but the highest bitrate is the XP Mode. FR60 is similar to the XP Mode and recording to only half resolution (FR175) if LSI chip or not couldn't be a good choice.
I had read the manual today again and you can't choose any setting for the LSI chip, but no tape have the same noise. You must live with the result that the LSI chip gives. I agree that noise is every mpg encoders death,

FR170 is probably the most ideal. It has more bits per pixel that even XP mode, and the 352x576/480 capture size is more than adequate for VHS sources.

Quote:

that's why I have proposed one of the Sony Recorders (I don't know if these recorders have been relaesed in the USA), they can record with 15mbps (hq+ mode). Unfortunately you can't burn this to a disc from the harddrive. That's why I have proposed to remove the harddisk as the user themaster1 had done in this thread:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...rder-pass.html

Since the OP here wants to avoid lots of computer work, and partly due to time, I think that'd be unwanted in his case. But for others, yes, something to consider. 15mbps is my favorite spec for semi-archival home video, and I do this with my ATI AIW AGP/PCI cards.

Quote:

Why Selurs "Hybrid"? It's always a pain to collect all necassary scripts,dll... for avisynth. You got them all with the downlaod and it does the scripting of the avisynth script for the filter you will use,too.

You're the 1st person I've come across that could get Hybrid to play nice with Avisynth. After hearing that, I must try again sometime. I already have Avisynth on the system, Avisynth+x64 as well, but it appears than Hybrid uses its own install.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

Rabbit hole is getting deeper. For past couple of weeks I've been trying to capture VHS tapes to DVD with Panasonic FS200 and JVC DR-MH300 DVD-recorder, and Panasonic DMR-EZ48 VHS+DVD combo.
I'm happy with the quality I get with FS200+DR-MH300, but I get some lag and/or lost frames couple of times every minute.

As warned, lack of TBC probably why. Or an ES10 as 2nd choice, maybe.

Quote:

Panasonic DMR-EZ48 makes 720x576 captures and quality is very bad in scenes with lots of movement.

The reason why nobody (that likes quality) likes Panasonic DVD recorders. Those were always terrible. The only good use of Panasonic recorder was the ES10 (and 15/20 NTSC with s-video) for the passthrough filters, and never the recording quality.

Quote:

So, I thought I've put enough money on the project, and thought I'm not going to use any DVD-recorder box anymore, and ordered Hauppauge USB-Live2 stick. I hope I'll get better results with it.

Hauppauge is very hit-or-miss, mostly miss, for many years now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

You will have A/V desync issues that is for sure especially on long captures (+30min)
Some canopus advc have locked audio (less prone to a/v desync) but it's not lossless

Canopus "audio lock" was just marketing. The technical "locking" of audio wasn't a feature of consumer DV25 (miniDV). ADVC boxes can drop frames like anything else, due to dropped frames, due to signal quality issues, present when no external frame sync TBC is in the workflow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

Oh. Somehow I understood using TBC would be solution for the A/V sync issues. Oh well, if everything else fails, seems I need to go with DV-devices.

You (may have) understood correctly. Just realize that "TBC" is a wide loose term. So the TBC in a VCR is not the same as external TBC. Even then, the external TBC must be cooperative with noisy VHS signal sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

Hmm.. So I've got another idea while looking for DV capture devices. Now when I have all these DVD-recorder boxes.. And they've got a HDMI out. Would set it to output 576i and capture it somehow on computer.
Would it solve the problem to use HDMI capture device instead?
My idea would be Panasonic FS200 S-Video out -> JVC DR-MH300 S-video in -> JVC-DRMH300 HDMI out -> Capture device HDMI in
Or would such an attempt be just asking for more trouble?

More trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

I think you're best option really is a canopus advc given that you work with Pal (4.2.0) (the canopus advc 300 includes noise reduction, basic colors correct, Locked audio.) . I think some models can do dvcpro (4.2.2) these may be more interesting if you're all about quality

PAL 4:2:0 DV is not bad. Just halving of color, like DVD. Not quartering like NTSC, which really ruins the quality, especially viewed large. But again, the DV capture workflow may not help at all with dropped frames. The ADVC-300 has issues with always-on NR effects, even turned off, somewhat like the Panasonic ES10/15/20 used on passthrough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The desync issues could be partly due to down to capture settings, so you may want to tinker with it.

If it was only computer, sure, but not with pure hardware: S-VHS VCR > DVD recorder. It has to be lack of TBC causing it. I just don't know what else it could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

I don't know if JVC does passthrough.

It does not.

Quote:

I would understand "passthrough" as unaltered image.

We use it differently with DVD recorders. On DVD recorders, the signal would usually only pass if it was a recorded output. No coax out, no filters engaged. For capturing specifically, it means the DVD recorder quasi-TBC filtering and NR works on all video, recorded to disc or not.

The term is honestly misused when considered an unaltered image. That's bypass.

I've been wanting to reply to this thread for at least a week now.

[poenttoe]

Thanks for your reply, lordsmurf!

I've made some experiments with Panasonic NV-FS200 (TBC enabled) and JVC DR-MH300 DVD-recorder with replaced HDD. I still have this lag/dropped framed issue with direct to DVD. I tried yesterday to capture DV from it, and it seems fine! No sync issues, no lag/drop.

This lag/drop issue I have with JVC is not the usual like you lose few frames here and there. It is like it goes fast forward for a little bit and then stops for few frames to catch up. I haven't checked if it is actually dropping frames or something else happens. It is not depend of tape or tape position, it just happens 1-2 times per minute, and it does not happen when capturing DV to HDD, so something strange is going on with either DVD-encoder or DVD-drive itself.

Well, anyways, now when I'm at this point, I think I'm not going to invest to new hardware anymore. I think capturing tapes to JVC as DV, and then dubbing DV to computer is the way to go now. It takes a lot of time, but atlest it will not need my attention while it's doing it's thing. I'm still going to make some test captures with Hauppauge USB Live2, and if I have good results, i'll make huffyuv capturing.

So anyway rabbit hole gets deeper again.. Back to capturing to computer, and making (basic) filtering, something to make video better for MPEG encoders, so some kind of noise filtering at minimum, without losing too much detail/sharpness. Now I'm going to need some advice for filtering and such. I do have some experience with (digital) video editing using VirtualDub, AVISynth, and encoding as XviD.

I plan to keep the original captures archived as well, I don't know yet if it will be DV or huffyuv, so encoding to DVD/BluRay is just for random/easy viewing. And archiving original captures keeps door open for future medium or improvements in encodes as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Never a CCE fan, but otherwise a good plan.

Which encoder would you recommend?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by poenttoe

Which encoder would you recommend?

My choice has long been MainConcept Reference (now TotalCode), and the MainConcept Encoder before that. CCE has ancient MPEG quality from 90s, and has infamous mosquito noise.

For pay = MainConcept Reference/TotalCode
For free = Avidemux .... guide: How to Encode MPEG-2 with Avidemux (Freeware)

[themaster1]

I agree mainconcept ref., 2pass vbr with high bitrate is close to perfect imo (there are a couple of settings to tweak though)
Many top grade mpeg2 encoders were based on mainconcept works if i'm not mistaken (tried to copy at least)

[poenttoe]

I've made few 2-pass test encodings using avidemux, and results look promising. I've been little too aggressive on noise filtering in my tests (used mplayer HQ denoise). TotalCode Studio seems too expensive for my use, so I think I won't go there. Mainconcept Reference I can't find for sale anymore, atleast on their site

I needed to use older version of avidemux (2.5.6), latest version (2.7.1) doesn't want to make interlaced MPEG-2. Too bad since Linux is my main system and I don't want to spend time to figure out how to compile 2.5.6 in current system. Anyway I may need AviSynth.. Avidemux does seem to crash each time at the end of first pass, but it isn't deal breaker as I can do second pass later.

I needed to remove one field from begining using AviSynth+, didn't find out how (or if) to do it with avidemux, as my test clip is mostly 25fps (progressive), and raw DV capture had movement interlaced. Removing one field "synced" things up.

So my workflow is little excessive now

Panasonic NV-FS200 -> JVC DR-MH300 as DV -> computer (dvgrab) -> avidemux (through AviSynth+ if needed)

Filters I used (in order): SeparateFields, Crop, Chroma shift, MPlayer HQDN3D, MPlayer Resize (to 352x288), Merge Fields. Result is 352x576 interlaced.