Capture NTSC with PAL equipment?

[RockCassette]

Hi,
I would like to know that I achived in capturing NTSC VHS with this PAL chain
"VCR" JVC HR-S7965EK -> "DVD&HD Recorder" Pioneer DVR-440H
The video is recorded on the Pioneer DVR-440H embedded hard drive. But during the capturing I also watched it on TV.

The only thing I did is the switch from "Input Line System" 625 to "525 System" on Pioneer.
"NTSC on PAL TV" must be OFF

The video quality is as it is a PAL vhs.

[Eric-Jan]

with switchable tv-system features
You have some black lines in view ?

colorburst ?

[RockCassette]

I watched them, they looks like PAL cassettes. I will check with PC within few days.

-- merged --

Hi,
here some screenshot of the NTSC video captured through "VCR" JVC HR-S7965EK -> "DVD&HD Recorder" Pioneer DVR-440H in XP mode on HDD -> DVD+RW in XP mode.

https://ibb.co/XFShfxL
https://ibb.co/DVVrw69

XP mode is the better quality of recording: one hour of recording time on a 4.7GB DVD disc.
First I capture on internal hard drive then I burn the videos on DVD+RW, finally I save them on a PC hard drive with DVD decrypter File mode.


The quality is quite good.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockCassette

The quality is quite good.

Is it? How would one know that? You posted still images of screen shots, not actual videos.
What will you do about the head switching noise?

[sanlyn]

BTW, when your offline images disappear from imgbb, your post will be meaningless. Tech forums always ask that samples should be posted to the forum, not to temporary offsite storage.

Sorry I couldn't add these comments to the previous post, I had to interrupt my internet connection during a storm. Your images look soft and out of focus, especially in some areas of the rocks. Do you have any idea why they look that way? Of course, the moving water won't be sharp. In the second image there are signs of horizontal dropout or ripples. With still images it's hard to tell. The color balance is definitely bluish. Also, the images aren't screen captures; they're lossy VLC snapshots. Likely you'll get better tech advice if you post real video samples.

How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site

[Eric-Jan]

To judge video quality, is hard... a lot depends if the recording itself is already first class... ?
or is it a copy of a camcorder transfered to VHS ....
you should avoid any tv system conversion, do only PAL > PAL or NTSC > NTSC
If you're the end user, and you're happy with it, it's okay.
(the so called pro's on this board are a bit too grumpy... you'll never hear anything positive from them...)
You have noise reduction or "edit" modes switched off? (you should)
It comes down to that you do a lot of experiments with different settings.

Only you saying: "The video quality is as it is a PAL vhs" is not correct if the VHS tape is NTSC......

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

(the so called pro's on this board are a bit too grumpy... you'll never hear anything positive from them...)
You have noise reduction or "edit" modes switched off? (you should)

I realize that for many people, mediocrity is the rule. It's easy as all heck and any damn fool can make make an ugly video, no skills required. For that task, no one needs a tech forum or anyone with experience or expertise. There are already thousands of blogs for that, and of course there's always YouTube for easy public recognition of visual underachievment. But I should think that a tech forum would aspire to higher quality, or just get out of the business.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockCassette

Hi,
I would like to know that I achived in capturing NTSC VHS with this PAL chain
I watched them, they looks like PAL cassettes. I will check with PC within few days.

PAL VCRs play NTSC as NTSC-50. It's a quasi signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockCassette

here some screenshot of the NTSC video captured through "VCR" JVC HR-S7965EK

Sample clips required, as the PAL/NTSC issue presents with motion artifacts. Let's see if any exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

BTW, when your offline images disappear from imgbb, your post will be meaningless.
How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site

Yes, please attach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

To judge video quality, is hard... a lot depends if the recording itself is already first class... ?
or is it a copy of a camcorder transfered to VHS ....
you should avoid any tv system conversion, do only PAL > PAL or NTSC > NTSC

Yes, all accurate. And...

Quote:

If you're the end user, and you're happy with it, it's okay.

To an extent, this is true. But only after the person really tries to get the quality that is well known to be accomplished. I despise the "good enough" mentality, especially when zero effort or forethought went into the process. That's not "you're happy with it", that's just being lazy and/or a cheapskate. But...

Quote:

(the so called pro's on this board are a bit too grumpy... you'll never hear anything positive from them...)

You're really starting to piss me off now, by making comments like this. It's out of line.

Quote:

You have noise reduction or "edit" modes switched off? (you should)

This is not an absolute truth.

Quote:

It comes down to that you do a lot of experiments with different settings.
Only you saying: "The video quality is as it is a PAL vhs" is not correct if the VHS tape is NTSC......

Also correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

a tech forum would aspire to higher quality

And we do, always have, always will.

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

I realize that for many people, mediocrity is the rule. It's easy as all heck and any damn fool can make make an ugly video, no skills required. For that task, no one needs a tech forum or anyone with experience or expertise. There are already thousands of blogs for that, and of course there's always YouTube for easy public recognition of visual underachievment. But I should think that a tech forum would aspire to higher quality, or just get out of the business.

Well, calling names to people who are starting to try and understand how to capture video,and define them as "stupid" (like i've seen in posts) is not "aspiring" to those who try their best,(you have to start somewhere, like this web forum) that's what i call grumpy, better try to approach that in a more positive way, and a "damn fool" like you say, will not take any effort to visit a forum.

[sanlyn]

I didn't refer to anyone as stupid. And the phrase "any damn fool" is a USA colloqial expression meaning anyone walking by on the street who slaps off some careless effort. I would have been able to advise in more detail, but what can you do with what looks like a soft-focus still image? The post implied (to me) that the owner doesn't yet understand many of the differences between a photo and video. Or perhaps they do, but what else can you tell them about a non-moving image except to ask that they submit videos to a video forum, and if they want an evaluation of some still shots they might get better information at the Adobe Photoshop forum or similar site. Or perhaps they wanted information about color balance or some obvious defect, and often a still frame is sufficient for that. But in this case, I had no idea what the user wanted. Anyway, anyone who doesn't care to make an effort to learn something wouldn't want a forum that goes into capture and processing details.

My apologies, then. Perhaps the user can reply by telling us what kind of information they're looking for.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

Well, calling names to people who are starting to try and understand how to capture video,and define them as "stupid" (like i've seen in posts) is not "aspiring" to those who try their best,(you have to start somewhere, like this web forum) that's what i call grumpy, better try to approach that in a more positive way, and a "damn fool" like you say, will not take any effort to visit a forum.

I don't disagree with any of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

the phrase "any damn fool" is a USA colloqial expression meaning anyone walking by on the street who slaps off some careless effort.

Correct. It's not directed at any person, but is a generic expression. It's not too distant from the phrase "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one", which is also not calling anybody an a-hole. Of course, these are somewhat more crass, neither are sayings that we like to see on the forums, the language is a bit more blunt than is necessary.

Quote:

My apologies, then.
want a forum that goes into capture and processing details.

Yes, let's get this thread back on topic. Hopefully RockCassette isn't scared off.

@RockCassette: Again, post a video sample for us.

[RockCassette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

[cut]

Yes, let's get this thread back on topic. Hopefully RockCassette isn't scared off.

@RockCassette: Again, post a video sample for us.

Hello everybody,
I will post a video sample.

[hodgey]

As mentioned in other threads, I've used this approach as well for a few NTSC tapes, though using a capture card with the DVR as pass-through rather than directly to DVD.

Many PAL decks can play NTSC cassettes, but plays back in the PAL-60 format rather than actual NTSC. PAL-60 NTSC the colour encoded like in the PAL system. I think reason for using it over standard NTSC was to make it easy and cheap to adapt the playback devices and TVs to play back NTSC material without needing the full NTSC which would have been a bit more complex with the technology of the time.

Some PAL devices, including newer Sony Hi8 cams, many Sony VHS decks and some Panasonic broadcast decks, and multi-system decks can also play back NTSC in the NTSC-4.43 format, which is like normal NTSC but with the colour data transmitted at the same frequency band as in PAL (i.e 4.43 MHz contra 3.58MHz for normal NTSC).

Playing back NTSC on pal machines tends to disable the TBC and most of the processing on the decks/camcorders themselves, so I don't think edit mode on or off will be very relevant (though I haven't checked in detail on the noise reduction).

These (or at least the PAL versions) Pioneer (and later Sony) DVRs are capable of taking in a PAL-60 or NTSC-4.43 signal, and output normal NTSC, or burn NTSC DVDs. The Line-TBC function on them is still active with NTSC input, which can to a degree make up for a lack of line-tbc on the playback device. It is a useful approach for capturing the occasional NTSC tape, though I don't think it would fully match a proper NTSC setup, especially on bad tapes. I've gotten good results with it though. If I can manage to make a NTSC sample tape I can upload a demo as well, but I don't have a functioning VCR or camcorder that can record NTSC right now. I believe the Cypress TBCs aka AVT-8710 and related can also accept NTSC-4.43.

I could not notice an immediate difference between NTSC-4.43 and PAL-60 on the camcorders, but I haven't analyzed in detail. NTSC-4.43 ought to be approximately equivalent to normal NTSC in theory, as it's the same signal just on a different carrier frequency. I don't know if the DVR or other devices handles it like that in practice though. PAL-60 I'm less sure about, whether the conversion from NTSC colour to PAL makes a noticeable impact or not. PAL colour encoding may have less vertical resolution than NTSC, at least according to the wiki article on PAL, but I'm not well read enough about it to say too much. Of course if you're going directly to DVD, the vertical colour resolution will be halved in any case due to the colour encoding on the DVD format.

[Eric-Jan]

With the DVD Recorder as passthrough/recording, if it can handle NTSC and PAL the only thing is that the disc will be formated in NTSC or PAL, but it can't store both tv system recordings on one disc, the PAL60 or NTSC50 is only done for the television tuner.

The video over RCA, SCART or S-video will be normal NTSC/PAL video. is the short answer
btw... is there a conversion taking place, when you record/passthrough a different tv system VHS tape ?
Will a PAL passthrough vhs-tape have less lines on a US multi system vhs machine ?

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockCassette

Hello everybody,
I will post a video sample.

Thank you.
How to upload a sample from DVD, MPEG-2 with DGindex [GUIDE]

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

PAL VCRs play NTSC as NTSC-50. It's a quasi signal.

Incorrect, that funcition has been switched off by RockCassette on the Pioneer device, i understand.
His VCR and DVR are PAL devices switched to NTSC, his tv is NTSC

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Many PAL decks can play NTSC cassettes, but plays back in the PAL-60 format rather than actual NTSC. PAL-60 NTSC the colour encoded like in the PAL system. I think reason for using it over standard NTSC was to make it easy and cheap to adapt the playback devices and TVs to play back NTSC material without needing the full NTSC which would have been a bit more complex with the technology of the time.

In recent years, I always mix up PAL-60 and NTSC-50.

The topic comes up less and less now. I remember constantly discussing it in the mid 2000s, but it almost never comes up now.