Panasonic ES15 duplicate frames? Alert, problem!

[thestarswitcher]

This thread is in reference to another one, in which my captures were resulting with timing issues. This can be read here. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...e-problem.html

I feel this discovery is worthy of its own thread, because there may be people using such equipment with this undetected, unsuspected issue at hand.

I figured out the problem with differencing runtime in my project, and it has to do with the Panasonic DMR-ES15 unknowingly inserting frames throughout on various tapes. Here's the results of my test:

1 tape was played five times each, the same segment running 15 minutes through a JVC-SR10U. The tape in question is a movie with a DVD release; the DVD is ripped and put into the timeline of my non-linear editing software as my main timing reference.

Pass 1: VCR--> PC
Pass 2: VCR--AVT-8710--> PC
Pass 3: VCR--ES15--AVT-8710-> PC
Pass 4: VCR--ES15--> PC
Pass 5: VCR (with TBC turned off)--ES15--AVT-8710-> PC

I put the six video sources into a timeline, on top of each other. Pass 1 and 2's timing matched up precisely and exact to the DVD reference. With the ES15 in the capture chain, there's 1 disgusting inserted frame- and the various capture software I have experimented with are not detecting this. This is examined through a frame by frame analysis of the clips. In Passes 3-5, the inserted frame would be somewhere different in the capture- never in the same spot.

The biggest issue of all of this as stated earlier, is that the software is not detecting these frames, and many of you could be victim to this unknowing inconvenience caused by the DMR-ES15.

I just thought I should post this to let everybody know who is using an ES15 to be wary of this issue. I really want to have a device like this somewhere in my capture chain, since it does magical things with my worn, EP VHS tapes of rare content; but I can't risk this technical issue with a large project of many tapes underway. Does anybody have any suggestions? Would an ES10 not have this issue, or could an AG-1980 possibly fix the issues that the DVD recorders fix? Thank you so much! (picture attached).

falg.jpg

[lordsmurf]

I don't know that I'd call this a "hazard" (it doesn't case the unit to burst into flames), but it is a known issue. This is why a TBC(ish) is a budget option, not as ideal as a true TBC.

The ES10/15 is most ideal when only used as passthrough to specifically defeat tearing issue.

The underlying issue can be more complex, as it's more often caused by conflicts in devices. In other words, the capture card and ES15 don't like each other. VirtualDub can also be an issue, as there are settings to insert frame, and that can be disabled on systems where the issue shows.

Is that the green AVT-8710, or the known flawed black one?
And if black, are you 100% sure that pass 3/5 matched pass 4?

The ES10 is stronger, and behaves slightly different that the ES15. I observe less conflicts with it. But then again, it could be other variables, including imagination. I've never sat and test those head-to-head for this exact issue.

You have to realize that VHS was a chaotic format, and it often amazes me that it ever worked at all. So for just 1 frame here and there, I wonder fret about it, especially since my HDTV does this sort of task in-set as it is. Only if it was constant would I investigate more heavily. A few inserted/dupe frames (under 10) per hour (~180,000) won't matter that much. While you want quality as high as possible, perfection is impossible.

[thestarswitcher]

I use AmaRecTV, which would say where frames have been inserted (I never had VirtualDub ever work for me, went through 3 different computers in and out which failed me).

I use the Black AVT-8710, but I monitor the performance on all tapes at all times, just in case that annoying freeze-field crap starts happening.

Passes 3, 4, and 5 were different, as they had the issue happen at different times. Can assure it isn't the AVT's fault, because the passes without the ES15 were great.

Would the ES10 possibly solve this inserted frame thing over the ES15?