Panasonic AG-1970P audio muddy/muffled?

[uofmrapper]

Hello!

I'm new here and working on a project to capture some old VHS tapes. After reading numerous articles I understood that some of the video issues I was having with capturing on a couple DVD/VCR combos could likely be solved by having a better VCR with TBC. I purchased a Panasonic AG-1970P off eBay recently and have been playing around with it. The video quality is better but I'm noticing that the audio output sound much more muddy or muffled compared to the audio captured with the other units. I've added a video here for reference and you can hear the difference. I've played around with all the settings on the 1970P and looked through the manual but admittedly I'm a newbie to the world of high-end VCRs.

Any advice on what I can try or what might be going wrong? Thanks!

[Formica]

What are you using to capture?

[uofmrapper]

I tried a couple different programs. One is "VHS2DVD" - some wizard that came with the RCA to USB capture device that I purchased. I've also used OBS. Results are the same with both programs.

From a hardware standpoint, I've tried using this VHS2DVD device from ClearClick which I think is just a rebrand of the same hardware you can find under a bunch of different names. I also purchased an RCA to HDMI converter and HDMI capture device to see if that makes a difference but I am getting the same results with both setups. The problem seems to follow the VCR.

[hodgey]

Muffled audio can be caused by a dirty audio head (or very worn or misaligned one but that's much less likely). Neither of the clip sound like hi-fi stereo, so I presume it's standard linear audio.

[uofmrapper]

I see references to Hi-Fi Stereo in the manual but I'm not familiar with it. I assume it needs to be used at the time of recording the audio, not just in playback? On the AG-1970P I only have the two RCA stereo audio outputs in the back - would Hi-Fi be part of that? Can you tell me more about Hi-Fi Stereo or point me to a good resource?

-- merged --

I took the cover off and tried to clean the audio head with some isopropyl alcohol but didn't seem to help. Wonder if it is misaligned? I tried monkeying with the screws a tiny bit but it didn't seem to make a difference and don't really know what I'm doing so don't wanna make it worse. Thoughts?

[latreche34]

You should NEVER try to re-align a VCR just because one tape didn't play good, now that you lost the factory alignment you will never be able to get it back to the right position, Good job, you've already made worse!

[uofmrapper]

It wasn't just one tape, it was every tape I tried. I used older tapes and even multiple VHS-Cs in the adapter and everything sounded like this. In fact, by tweaking a few of the screws it actually made it slightly better! But still it's as if there are no highs in the audio, only lows and mids.

I'm wondering if the audio head itself is no good anymore, or there is some wiring in the connector that is not good. Was just hoping someone here may have had this same experience and could offer some help.

[dpalomaki]

The AG-1970 allows yo to select to hear the linear track (mono) or HiFI track (stereo) if resent, or a mix of both. The portion of the audio form the AG-1970 is lacking higher frequency content, and has a sharp cutoff at around 13.5 kHz, while the other has sharp cutoff at around 15.7 kHz. Because the audio is not the same in the two segments it is difficult to make a good comparison. However, the cutoff at 13.5 kHz is consistent with the linear track audio spec.

The audio in the clip you provided is a stereo file, but the content in the left and right channels is essentially identical (except for the noise floor). Many home videos were made on a mono camcorder.

The AG-1970 linear audio head is combined with the control track head. Depending on the history of the machine the audio/control head could be misaligned resulting in high frequency loss, or suffer head wear. One can try a self record/playback cycle to check for high frequency loss to rule in/out audio head alignment issues. If the self record/play sounds ok, it is likely head alignment.

One should use an alignment tape to set it correctly. In pinch one could align to a 10 kHz tone recorded in a known good machine. It might not be perfect but should be closer.

[lordsmurf]

Several issues here.

Don't use OBS. That's a streaming capture software, and does badly with analog capture. That can be a problem, especially since it compresses everything.

VHS2DVD is a low-end card, either an Easycap (aka Easycrap, deserved nickname), or a "grabber" device/clone. This is all terrible stuff, and a problem is lousy audio (mostly tinny, but overall distorted).

AG-1970 decks are variable. Aged decks won't be in good shape. Where did it come from? Realize that most "tested" and "working"decks from eBay are neither, and have massive issues, especially Panasonics. If you're not buying a refurb Panasonic from TGrant or Deter, then assume it's broken in some way. Those are now about 30 years old.

[hodgey]

Does it happen with hi-fi audio as well or just normal audio? And does it happen when sending audio from an external audio source through it, and do you get anything different if you use the headphone output? I would also check with a fresh self-recording as mentioned which will give an indication on whether it is an issue with the audio head or not.

[uofmrapper]

Quote:

The AG-1970 allows yo to select to hear the linear track (mono) or HiFI track (stereo) if resent, or a mix of both.

Is this the "MONO" switch? I've tried it both off and on don't hear any difference.

Quote:

Because the audio is not the same in the two segments it is difficult to make a good comparison.

I've attached two new audio clips recorded from the different VCRs of the same clip.

Quote:

One can try a self record/playback cycle to check for high frequency loss to rule in/out audio head alignment issues. If the self record/play sounds ok, it is likely head alignment.

Can you tell me some more how to do this? I'm not sure I understand - do I record from the combo unit that outputs good audio to the AG-1970? Then if audio is good if I playback the tape in the combo unit, then it would point to an audio head issue?

Quote:

Don't use OBS. That's a streaming capture software, and does badly with analog capture.

Oh ok! I thought I read that it was a good capture option, and it seemed to be pretty friendly. Any advice on something better? I plan to do my editing in Vegas Pro which has a capture option, is that any better? I guess since the audio captured via OBS on the combo unit is satisfactory for my needs then maybe it's "good enough" but not ideal. When I get more ambitious and have some more time then I can try for better quality.

Quote:

Where did it come from?

It did come from eBay, the listing said "TESTED...WORKS" so, silly me, I thought that meant it actually worked all the way. Lesson learned...

Quote:

Does it happen with hi-fi audio as well or just normal audio?

Nope - Hi-Fi audio sounds great. I don't have many retail VHSs laying around but I popped in "An American Tale" and it sounds great, looks great.

Quote:

And does it happen when sending audio from an external audio source through it, and do you get anything different if you use the headphone output?

No problems there. If I play the same home movie VHS through the combo unit with audio routed to the front input of the AG-1970 it sounds fine through audio out connection in the back of the AG-1970.

Quote:

and do you get anything different if you use the headphone output?

Nope, same poor, muddy audio quality when I try the headphone output when playing back through the AG-1970 itself (non-Hi-Fi of course).

Thanks for all the help - hopefully we can figure something out!

[lordsmurf]

VirtualDub. not OBS.

eBay has turned into a video hardware dumping ground, especially for VCRs. A site where newbies are sold crap from ignorant sellers (or outright liars), more often than not. Not always, but an overwhelming majority (80%+) of auctions I've seen in the past 2 years. Many posts from new members here, who were snookered by know-nothing sellers.

That capture of yours really look terrible. That capture card has butchered the video quality. VHS should not look that bad. All your highlights and darks have been crushed into a muddy yuck.

This all said, that audio may be the 1970 reacting to linear.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Is this the "MONO" switch? I've tried it both off and on don't hear any difference.

The MONO switch relates to recording; e.g., broadcasts with poor/noisy stereo audio, and is not related to your playback issue. Just leave it OFF for playback.

The "Audio Out" button should cycle the output between the various audio output options, Stereo HiFi, HiFi left, HiFi right, and Normal (Linear track). The selection will be displayed by lights under the VU meters. Normally the two lights are on for HiFi stereo, and off for Normal (linear) audio.

The HiFi/Normal mix should normally be off. I can see where it could cause high frequency audio losses issues if the normal and HiFi track have nominally the same audio, but phase issues arise due to the precise physical location of the linear head. (It is mainly used if different should has been dubbed to the linear track, such as voice over. If your tapes do not have HiFi/Stereo it should not make any significant difference.)

Quote:

do I record from the combo unit that outputs good audio to the AG-1970? Then if audio is good if I playback the tape in the combo unit, then it would point to an audio head issue?

The self-record process would be to record some test sound with the AG-1970 from a source with a wide frequency range content at SP speed. Then play the tape back in the same AG-1970. Listen to both the HiFi and to the Normal (linear) tracks only. (The HiFi track should should be about FM broadcast quality, and the linear track will be closer to AM radio quality (perhaps a bit better).

[dpalomaki]

The attached two files show the frequency spectrum of the two files you uploaded.

The AG-1970 has some unusual noise components in above 10 kHzit as well as the very different profile in the mid frequencies.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You should NEVER try to re-align a VCR just because one tape didn't play good, now that you lost the factory alignment you will never be able to get it back to the right position, Good job, you've already made worse!

Whilst it's not optimal, it's not the absolute end of the world, they can be realigned without too much struggle, albeit it won't meet the exacting requirements of whatever it was set at.

I agree opening the machine and just twiddling things isn't a great idea but linear audio head alignment isn't an absolutely exact science on videotape machines, no more so than it would be on a domestic audio cassette player, it can be carefully readjusted.

Note the use of the word "carefully", indeed some tapes I've found over the years from wonky machines occasionally need a tiny tweak to the audio head alignment for best playback.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

...You should NEVER try to re-align a VCR just because one tape didn't play good,...

Valid advice for Joe or Jane Sixpack but not everyone. It would depend on how important that audio is to one and whether or not one knows what they are doing.

Quote:

...now that you lost the factory alignment you will never be able to get it back to the right position,...

True only if one has no way to perform an alignment. That generally involves having an alignment tape and a few basic technician tools and skills. Whether or not it had the factory alignment to begin with is a separate question.

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...Good job, you've already made worse!...

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on where it started and where it ended.

[latreche34]

The stationary heads have multiple adjustments on the same block, Sync track, Audio track, sync delay/advance, lip sync with linear track, You can literally move the block by several frames without noticing it if you don't know which screws to mess with. Also if you don't get the head tilt right the pinch roller start to push the tape upwards or downwards and damage the tape even by an amount that cannot seen by the naked eye, You have no idea how many basic and specialized tools and alignment tapes the VCR technicians used back in the day, linked below are some of the tools and alignment tapes, click the numbers or the left/right arrows for more tools pictures. All what I am saying is be careful when tempering with such high precision devices.

VCR tools

[uofmrapper]

Thanks again. I tried VirtualDub but today but didn't see a noticeable difference. Maybe I need to monkey withe settings, I'll play around more with it.

I set the audio out to not show the L/R icons but even if I try to turn them in, as soon as j hit play they go away which I assume means there is no hi-fi track. Was it common at all for home video recorders to record in hi-fi? All my tapes are home recordings.

I will try the self record process and see what I get...

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Was it common at all for home video recorders to record in hi-fi? All my tapes are home recordings.

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...#ixzz6dcG7POrq

Early VHS VCRs were mainly mono linear track only, but there were some high end models that offered a stereo linear track. Eventually HiFi/stereo audio came to VHS, but the linear track was retained as well. HiFi/stereo was mainly found on the models near the top of the manufacturers product line. Basic models generally did not support HiFi tarck recording. So while stereo HFi capability was by no means rare, it wasn't the rule either.

VCRs with a HiFi capability would record the audio to both the linear and HiFi tracks as a default.

Since the L/R lights went out it indicates there was no HiFi track recorded. Do you know what make/model VCR was used to make the tapes.

Audio/Control head and guides alignment procedure is described in detail in the AG-1970 service manual, Section 2-3.

[kingbean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by uofmrapper

Thanks again. I tried VirtualDub but today but didn't see a noticeable difference. Maybe I need to monkey withe settings, I'll play around more with it.

I set the audio out to not show the L/R icons but even if I try to turn them in, as soon as j hit play they go away which I assume means there is no hi-fi track. Was it common at all for home video recorders to record in hi-fi? All my tapes are home recordings.

I will try the self record process and see what I get...

I had some similar troubles on my JVC unit, detailed here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post72418

If I can get Hi-Fi L R it sounds great. If I can't cycle audio track, it's lacking high end clarity. The strange thing in my case, is that if I play the same tape back on a second (non-TBC) JVC, I still can't change the audio track but the sound is noticeably richer in the highs.

Why? No idea. I'd much prefer my TBC JVC was able to reproduce the same sound quality, but for now, I'm capturing twice and switching out the audio. Time-consuming but I've only had three tapes like this, so I'll deal with it, for now.