Most recommended JVC VCR PAL model?

[lukasz]

Hi,
I'm considering expanding my VCR collection to include the JVC, as it's usually praised here as generally superior to PAL, better than Panasonic.

In my previous thread, JVC vs. Panasonic vs. Sharp vs. others? the 77xx (@lordsmurf), the HR-Sx500, and the HR-Sx600 series (@hodgey) were generally recommended. It's interesting, but the 77xx is not mentioned as recommended in the VCR Buying Guide on the forum and on the site. Additionally, I found several threads complaining about artifacts and poor mono sound in this model (or Philips VR1100 which is apparently similar).

For this reason, I decided to open this thread to find out if there is anything better than the above-mentioned models for archiving VHS tapes (mainly recordings of family events).

Currently I have:

• Sharp VC-S2000 (sold as new; it was for sure used but looks great inside)
• Panasonic NV-HS950 (generally works well, but there is noise when putting tape; I don't know what's that yet, something probably needs to be*lubricated, maybe a topic for a new post )
• LG LV4981 (nothing special, but I wanted to have this one for any case)
• Panasonic DMR-EH545 with external SSD

Thank you in advance for your reply!

[latreche34]

You won't find a comparison between a list of JVC VCRs anywhere, because for that to happen someone has to own them all, and honestly at this point of time all VCRs are aging and hard to compare them without a proper restoration to factory conditions. The consensus here is, a good VCR is any S-VHS/D-VHS VCR built in line TBC with S-Video out socket and in good working condition, these requirements alone narrows down your choices to only 2 brands, JVC and Panasonic, and only few models of each, with good working condition added, you are up to almost hunting down to find one.

[aramkolt]

Are you able to read the data off of that DMR-ES545's external hard drive after recording to it? I've heard there are programs that will read encrypted Panasonic drives - namely ISOBuster and PanasonicSync but have tried neither. That model was also sold originally in Europe, correct? Supposedly almost all models sold there use the same Panasonic chipsets that allow the ES10/ES15 to do their line-TBC-like goodness.

Could be an interesting capture setup if you re able to record to that external SSD in 480i and then transfer to PC.

[lukasz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You won't find a comparison between a list of JVC VCRs anywhere, because for that to happen someone has to own them all, and honestly at this point of time all VCRs are aging and hard to compare them without a proper restoration to factory conditions. The consensus here is, a good VCR is any S-VHS/D-VHS VCR built in line TBC with S-Video out socket and in good working condition, these requirements alone narrows down your choices to only 2 brands, JVC and Panasonic, and only few models of each, with good working condition added, you are up to almost hunting down to find one.

Yes, I am aware of that, it may not be possible to achieve a*relative consensus. It's just that the general recommendations in the guide are slightly different from what was mentioned on the forum. At least the models mentioned were not mentioned in the guide, and others were listed instead. Hence my question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Are you able to read the data off of that DMR-ES545's external hard drive after recording to it? I've heard there are programs that will read encrypted Panasonic drives - namely ISOBuster and PanasonicSync but have tried neither. That model was also sold originally in Europe, correct? Supposedly almost all models sold there use the same Panasonic chipsets that allow the ES10/ES15 to do their line-TBC-like goodness.

Could be an interesting capture setup if you re able to record to that external SSD in 480i and then transfer to PC.

Yes, it's possible and works great. It's possible to get access to the recordings on the disk. These are not RAW recordings, but the XP quality, MPEG-2 compressed, is acceptable. I searched the internet for possible software for this and then asked the seller, who mentioned such a possibility in the offer. Maybe this is not the specific topic of this thread, but I will try to describe the software briefly:

panasonic-rec
Good CLI software to read data from the MEIHDFS Panasonic's proprietary file system. There is a more detailed description of reverse engineering in the README. There is no need to create a disk image. For Windows ready-to-use binaries, for Linux, manual build is required. There is no mention of Mac OS, but it may work.

ISO Buster
A good, paid software for copying and cloning disks by sectors. GUI. Apparently, there is no difference between the panasonic-rec and ISO Buster regarding copying.

haliner/dvr-recover
A free program for recovering files from disk (including deleted ones). Slow, quite long search. It seems to find deleted files as well.

There is a version rewritten for Python 3 in the pull request.

I would suggest panasonic-rec or ISO Buster.

Sorry for the doubled posts in a row. I thought it would be merged automatically. I can't delete this one now.

[lordsmurf]

- JVC 7965 and 7611, both are quite different.
- Panasonic FS200 and HS1000, both are quite different.

Buy all 4.

As mentioned, condition matters. It's not just about model anymore.

[latreche34]

Not to mention if you enter budget into the mix, this could make it impossible for a lot of folks, To get a fully working or fully restored S-VHS VCR built in line TBC you're hitting the 2 grand mark, It's sad but that's the reality. I got all my VCRs for under $200 with minimal maintenance but that was over 5-10 years ago, I quit the hunt.

[prodarek]

You'll probably be amazed at first how JVC cleans up the image but then you'll be disappointed by how much detail it loses. In my case, the JVC was always much louder than the Panasonic, and I'm not talking about the sound from the recordings

[latreche34]

JVC line TBC/DNR does not lose details, Check your setting for Edit/Normal/...

[prodarek]

I only used edit, all the others are too blurry. DNR off Best/on/off, TBC on/off. Looks like I prefer oversharpened image from panasonic and details that are not there

It was/is JVC HR-S9850 vs. Panasonic NV-HS960 auto mode with DNR, TBC off.

Generally panasonic is for me much better in many cases:
better linear audio with filtering high freq.
cassette mechanism is ultra fast and silent, playing is inaudible.
Power cable can be disconnected
Auto secam detection.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodarek

You'll probably be amazed at first how JVC cleans up the image but then you'll be disappointed by how much detail it loses. In my case, the JVC was always much louder than the Panasonic, and I'm not talking about the sound from the recordings

Panasonic artificially sharpens the image, adding halo/ringing to images, even at default/0 slider settings. It must be nudged "soft" to be true to the tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

JVC line TBC/DNR does not lose details, Check your setting for Edit/Normal/...

Correct. You can disengage all filters, though I rarely do this, because NORM/AUTO mode mostly removes chroma noise. A lot of people confuse noise with "detail", so it's a factor in the EDIT vs. NORM/AUTO discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodarek

Looks like I prefer oversharpened image from panasonic and details that are not there

It would seem so. However, you'd doing it wrong. You should capture the so-called "soft" natural output, and then use Avisynth to sharpen it vastly better than a 30+ year-old Panasonic VCR technology can. I only use Panasonic sharpen sliders (never really more than +2 if it was divided to +10 to -10) to cheat, where the added halo/ringing noise is acceptable for a quick-n-dirty capture.

Quote:

Generally panasonic is for me much better in many cases:
better linear audio with filtering high freq.

Usually.

Quote:

cassette mechanism is ultra fast and silent, playing is inaudible.

Rarely. Panasonic decks are noisy.

Quote:

Power cable can be disconnected

JVC and Panasonic power is vastly different, with Panasonic power units being a mess. Burpy, chirpy, temperamental things. It's such a horrible design.

[latreche34]

I've never owned a panasonic but it seems to me it did not live long enough like JVC to take advantage of the new technology SoC (System on the chip), Everytime I see an open Panasonic VCR for repair I see tons of analog video boards hooked up with several connectors which requires a bulky power supply to power them up all.

[prodarek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

JVC and Panasonic power is vastly different, with Panasonic power units being a mess. Burpy, chirpy, temperamental things. It's such a horrible design.

I have no problems, the design is also better in pana no thousand stupid ribbons...

jvc 9850


pana 960

[latreche34]

Ribbons are not stupid, they are clever design, the easiest way to connect/disconnect modules for easy servicing, They are still being used today on modern devices, and you can still buy them at any length, pin number, pin pitch. Proprietary connectors are a nightmare.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I've never owned a panasonic but it seems to me it did not live long enough like JVC to take advantage of the new technology SoC (System on the chip),

Panasonic S-VHS decks, like the AG-1980, were still being manufactured in at least 2000. I forget the date offhand, but it was something like 1996-2002 or so.

The problem is Panasonic was stubbornly using base machine designs from the late 80s. While Panasonic and JVC were both part of Matsushita at the time, Panasonic was stodgy and overly complicated, antiquated even. Whereas JVC sought simplicity of design with modern form and function. This is apparent in multiple products, not just the with-TBC S-VHS VCRs.

The large clunky appearance of Panasonic gear often created the false impression that the machines were "workhorses", but in reality were just "old nags destined for the glue factory".

I would further suggest anybody enamored by these machines has never worked on them, nor run into the inevitable costly repairs yet (YET!!).

Consider some of us that intimately know these machines, some of us for decades:

• Deter is probably one of the best skilled at fixing these, and the irony is that he's come to hate them. He now limits intake,
• TGrant really disappointed a lot of us, because his repairs failed quickly (due to not properly changing all caps in the boards). Same as Deter now, limiting intake, But he also jumped his repair pricing 3x+, which I'd suggest is his way of not wanting to do them anymore.
• 12voltvids is a bit ridiculous in his over-the-top dislike, but I can see why.
• hodgey/oln probably isn't a big fan either, based on his excellent responses to gear repair posts. The irony here is that these failing Panasonic decks work best with his vhs-decode, and the so-called "way of the future" of transfers (touted by the project fanboys, not the devs) relies on these mass-failing ancient-design decks to output best quality. As was actually lining up my own vhs-decode setup, but then my AG-1970 failed, so screw it.
• I have a real love/hate relationship with AG-1980/etc, because the quality is often excellent, but not perfect, and comes with massive baggage of imminent failure at any time. I can run my JVC decks into the ground, and have for decades. But if I accidentally sneeze during a full moon, the AG decks can fail forever.

Yes, some Panasonic failures are irreparable, it cascades. The whole unit becomes a boat anchor.

Quote:

Everytime I see an open Panasonic VCR for repair I see tons of analog video boards hooked up with several connectors which requires a bulky power supply to power them up all.

The biggest problem with the design is that needed adjustments are not accessible during a repair. These were made for board swapping, and to be repaired on a custom bench. As it stands, you have to pull it apart, guess at adjustments, put it back together, and repair disassemble/reassemble if you readjustment guess was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodarek

I have no problems, the design is also better in pana no thousand stupid ribbons...

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Ribbons are not stupid, they are clever design, the easiest way to connect/disconnect modules for easy servicing, They are still being used today on modern devices, and you can still buy them at any length, pin number, pin pitch. Proprietary connectors are a nightmare.

Correct. And Panasonic has multiple proprietary connectors in those decks.

[prodarek]

Fortunately, everyone has eyes and everyone can have 2 3 4 different VCRs and decide for themselves. I expressed my own opinion because I was also looking for a JVC, but my device loses in basically every respect, I don't like the specificity of the image generated by the JVC and I'm not just talking about capturing and editing, I'm talking also about watching direct from the cassette on a 65-inch OLED screen .

Repair? not really I'll buy another one.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodarek

Fortunately, everyone ... can have 2 3 4 different VCRs

That's it. And not just any random VCR, but multiple good/suggested models. But when you can only afford one unit, certain JVCs are what you want. Those are the best overall, for multiple reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodarek

I'll buy another one.

Hey, next time you time jump in your DeLorean, pick me up a few.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

JVC line TBC/DNR does not lose details, Check your setting for Edit/Normal/...

Yeah that's more the NR that's active if not using the EDIT picture setting that can smear things a bit but it seems to vary a bit between the VCRs and whether BEST/Video calibration is on or off how much it does.
However, even with the TBC/DNR off at least on my PAL ones it seems to have some sort of luma ghosting/afterimages between frames. especially on scene changes.

hs6900 edit es30.png older JVC HR-S6900 without TBC (Edit mode)

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JVC HR-S8600 with TBC/DNR (Edit mode with TBC/DNR off)
hs8600 edit tbcoff es30.png JVC HR-S8600 with TBC/DNR (default mode with TBC/DNR on, don't remember if BEST was on or off)

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I've never owned a panasonic but it seems to me it did not live long enough like JVC to take advantage of the new technology SoC (System on the chip)

Newer ones did, and are as simplified as the newer JVC decks. They're just not as commonly discussed here, as it seems the consumer oriented ones sold in the US are not very favored for digitizing, and idk how long they sold the consumer oriented SVHS ones there. So you tend to be comparing a vcr first released about 95/96 (AG 1980P) that has a somewhat older side loading layout right before a major design transition (compare with the simpler PAL NV-HS900 also from 95/96) and JVCs from 1998 to early 2000s. The JVC SVHS decks from the early-mid 90s are also much more convoluted inside and not all that much nicer to work on that panasonics from the time.

See e.g newer PAL panasonic SVHS decks like NV-HS930, NV-SV120 and NV-SV121 or the newer ones released in Japan. Or this US consumer one, not sure which year it's from but probably at least 97/98 since it uses the z mech. These are much simpler, vcr electronics got way simplified during the mid-late 90s as functions got combined into multi-function ICs and components got smaller.

[latreche34]

Thanks for the info about the Panasonic.
Yes by mid 2000's VCRs became like toys, They were literally selling for under $20 retail, albeit regular VHS with composite only.

[aramkolt]

AG1980's aren't too bad to work on (just rather time consuming) and I don't think there's a benefit to replacing every single cap - I don't think any of the "professionals" replace everything. TBC board, timer/front boards, and some of the high heat areas do basically always need recapping and that's something like 70 caps or so. There are also 4 particularly annoying caps to get to that are below the head drum that are almost always out of spec that requires desoldering the head drum itself from the PCB (though I suspect most refurbishing services don't touch those either) I do fully recap the power supplies as well just for good measure, but most of the time, power supply caps test well within spec.

It takes me probably 8-10 hours to refurbish an AG1980 after having done about 12 of them now. Hard to say how they compare to the "professionals" doing it


I did do a 100% recap on an AG1980 once (which probably added an extra 10 hours of time), but I haven't really tested how that performs to a partially recapped one, but I suspect they are quite similar.

The thing I think I heard happening that was not good was only replacing a very small amount of caps - essentially only the ones that tested bad at the time of the repair rather than just replacing everything that is likely to fail.

From what I'm told, almost no one touches the audio boards, though the "Audio 2" board has something like 25 SMT caps mounted upside down on a daughter board which are very annoying to get to and those are almost always all bad as well. It's not clear to me what that daughter board actually does and if it's even used in VHS playback - could be something with editing/dubbing maybe.

Would be curious to hear if anyone knows what the "audio 2" board does.

As far as 12-Volt-Vids - he definitely hates SMT caps of any kind because they go bad so often, but moreso he hates the little ceramic boards that are used in certain Panasonics such as the AG1970. Those use thin film components printed directly onto that PCB and cannot be soldered to in order to replace anything and they almost all are already bad. He incorrectly states in his video that 1980's have that type of board in them. If they did, then we wouldn't be able to repair them. See here where he shows the ceramic boards - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho_GIFR2NhA&t=618s