10-27-2024, 01:46 AM
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I’m an unscripted (ie “reality”) producer/ editor and am curious how hardware DNR compares to post-processing apps like Neat video, Topaz Video Ai and any others y’all might suggest. I know Neat Video can do wonders for low light video sources. I’ve experimented w VHS tapes captured via firewire on VHS decks (not SVHS) and there is a huge difference, tho the settings are key b/c you can lose quality, over sharper, etc. But, what I don’t know is how this compares to hardware DNR like is found in some DVHS and SVHS players.
I’ve done a few searches, and seen some great results here from hardware DNR, but haven’t found anything strongly pointing in one or another direction w that vs software. So, any opinions are greatly appreciated!!
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10-27-2024, 06:24 AM
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Hello.
- Topaz is newbie/consumer fodderware, with zero real NR of any kind.
- NeatVideo is a dumb-down GUI.
^ Neither of those do much better than hardware NR. NeatVideo can be slightly better, or easily much worse. Topaz is just plain worse 99%+ of the time.
The real tool is the scripted Avisynth (and Vapoursynth). With it, you can almost anything you can imagine, plus things you've never thought of.
But I think you're approaching this topic backwards (or upside down).
In order for NR to do well, you have to start with quality source. Low-end VHS VCRs add noise and problems to the video, both in-signal (mostly due to compositing it down), lack of line TBC, and general inferior stability (due to loose/sloppy transports).
Hardware NR is very task-specific. For example, certain NR is only aimed at removing chroma noise, and nothing else. Some attempts a mild de-grain. Consumer VHS VCRs have the awful habit of "sharpening" (oversharpening! halo/ringing!) the image. S-VHS VCRs can have (most of) those settings turned off, so you can fully process for NR post-capture.
The "firewire" (DV) boxes harm quality as well, crushing it down to a pitiful 4:1:1 (NTSC), or non-ideal 4:2:0 (PAL). The results is that colors are "cooked", with tints changed, with color lines being jagged in appearance (especially on the draconian 4:1:1 sampling). Those boxes also add blocks to the encodes. It's 1990s tech, and it looks terrible.
So when you start with low-end VHS/videotape source, play it with a low-end VCR, then push it through a damaging DV box, you NR journey is starting with crap sources.
In many cases, even with NR, the NR'd output (from this low-end VCR/DV combo) is lesser quality than what the best VCR, TBCs, and capture card would have accomplished.
For NR to truly be effective, to actually remove source problems/noise, you must avoid adding "gear noise" (ie, damage done by the consumer VCR, damage done by the DV box). You need to extract that source signal as faithfully as possible. Methods that rely on consumer VCRs (regardless of claims made) will result in vastly inferior output, even with NR.
The best video projects start with hardware NR, than finish with software NR. It's not an either/or, but rather using all the tools available. Some people have this silly notion that it's a "vs" contest of some kind, and it's not, never has been, and never will be. When you come across that mentality, tune those people out, they're clueless. They probably tried to turn on everything, rather than understand what settings do (how/why), and when to use or not use each.
Does that clear it up for you?
It was a seemingly simple question, but it had the above complex answer.
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10-27-2024, 11:04 PM
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Thank you very much for that! And dig your pun there at the end!
To clarify, y'all have convinced me and I'm not going to try to capture the tapes on a crappy VCR. I'm going to get at least an SVHS or DVHS. Not sure I can afford the better ones w the TBC and DNR, but I'll see. This was more the point of the post tho, can these post processes make up for a SVHS player that doesn't have DNR. Seems the answer to that is no, it can't. Bad data in, bad data out.
As for Neat Video, I can tell you that if you have footage that originated in HD, it can do wonders. It saved my butt on an edit of a live tall bicycle joust shot in not great light. I have not used it on much SD or VHS material though, and I know these apps do better w more info. I'd be curious to try out Avisynth and Vapoursynth, though it sounds like they're way above my skill set.
Thanks again!
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10-28-2024, 12:08 AM
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TBC/DNR on D-VHS decks cannot be turned off, It's always on by design. It's annoying with tapes that has flagging at the top of the frame, With a VCR that has the option to turn off TBC you can get rid or reduce flagging, but with a D-VHS deck you can't, you would have to add something in between like a DVD recorder or studio tape deck to get rid off, I just want you to keep this in mind when buying a VCR.
https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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10-28-2024, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34
TBC/DNR on D-VHS decks cannot be turned off, It's always on by design. It's annoying with tapes that has flagging at the top of the frame, With a VCR that has the option to turn off TBC you can get rid or reduce flagging, but with a D-VHS deck you can't, you would have to add something in between like a DVD recorder or studio tape deck to get rid off, I just want you to keep this in mind when buying a VCR.
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Oh wow, thank you, I did not know that. WIsh I could just have a couple decks to check out and do a comparison, but that's not possible it seems w/o shelling out a lot of money then putting what I don't keep back on the market.
Had I known back in the day when my family had a couple of svhs players and I think even a dvhs I would have kept them even after they broke...
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10-28-2024, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTBDFilms
. I'm going to get at least an SVHS or DVHS.
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D-VHS decks are attuned to SP mode only (the LP and EP/SLP playback tends to be awful), and many have audio problems. Those are really not suggested, aside from certain source tape scenarios.
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Not sure I can afford the better ones w the TBC and DNR, but I'll see.
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Let's look at numbers...
Low-end VHS VCRs were $200 when new in the 90s, and at least double that in the 80s. Add inflation from the 90s, and a bottom-end VHS VCR would be about $500 in today's money. That tracks well, because a lot of the DVD/VHS combo units from the 00s were $250-300.
S-VHS decks always commanded a premium (due to quality components), with non-TBC decks being 2x the cost, and the with-TBC decks being at least 3x costs (up to 10x costs for AG-1980P).
Run those numbers, and you land at the actual market prices now, for a refurb'd-like-new recommended unit S-VHS around $1500. The non-TBC S-VHS decks are not as wanted, so those sell for a bargain price, often of under $250 used. VHS decks are mostly in abused shape, totally worthless for capture needs (unless you desire garbage quality), so those are found at Goodwill for under $20 (a tenth of the 90s costs).
Contrary to what some people think, items do not often get cheaper in time, not even used items.
eBay is gambling, not buying. Most of the sellers are non-video schmucks that falsely claim the units are "working" (or lying about "tested"). A large % of the buys, a majority, end in returns and refunds. If you want to gamble away a few hundred dollars, and potentially subject yourself to petty and rude sellers, with lots of return hassles, then you can potentially, eventually, find a decent with-TBC S-VHS for under $500. But it's rarely your first buy. Realistically, start of Nov now, you may not actually get a good unit until next year. So it's a really crappy method, but you can be cheap if you have excess time to fight bad sellers, and can afford funds tied up in the dispute/refund process. There's no guarantee it won't fail after the 30 day return window, of course. Nobody will help you, you're back at starting over to find a VCR.
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This was more the point of the post tho, can these post processes make up for a SVHS player that doesn't have DNR. Seems the answer to that is no, it can't. Bad data in, bad data out.
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Correct, no.
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As for Neat Video, I can tell you that if you have footage that originated in HD, it can do wonders.
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Yes, HD source footage has 4x+ data to work with, unlike VHS. That allows lots of room to improve, or to hide flaws.
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I'd be curious to try out Avisynth and Vapoursynth, though it sounds like they're way above my skill set.
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- For Avisynth, start by using the GUI Hybrid to observe and learn, then move to AvsPmod and Avisynth scripting for more manual control.
- Vapoursynth is complex, even for me. I'm still at the Hybrid observe/learn stage for it. Thankfully, I don't need it as much, and Hybrid does what I want with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34
you would have to add something in between like a DVD recorder or studio tape deck
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@OP
Not just any random DVD recorder, but units known for passthrough line TBC(ish), mostly just certain Panasonic ES10/15 type units. Those are not transparent, and add a lot of processing noise. For a non-TBC deck, it's required. For a D-VHS deck, it's sometimes needed, as stated..
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTBDFilms
WIsh I could just have a couple decks to check out and do a comparison, but that's not possible it seems w/o shelling out a lot of money then putting what I don't keep back on the market.
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That's why we're here, to help you avoid costly mistakes.
It's also why I refurb certain gear (VCRs, TBCs, capture cards), and put those in the marketplace forum here, to help others in our community get quality reliable gear they need, and not be subjected to unknowns by shysters (especially those eBay sellers/shysters).
When it comes to quality video capture, a lot of people are their own worst enemy, unwilling to spend funds on the tools they need. These are boring non-cheap items, like refrigerators, lawnmowers, and washer/dryer sets. It's not supposed to be some sleek/sexy new iPhone/whatever. Tools, not toys.
Odds are high that you want a JVC S-VHS with TBC, in Edit mode, capture everything with a good card (certain ATI/Pinnacle), and then process it in a combination of Hybrid/Avisynth, VirtualDub, NLE (Premiere/FCP/etc), and maybe even NeatVideo. You get the benefit from s-video and TBC, not molest the source with a bad capture card, and then have manual NR control.
Now the decision comes down to willingness to buy what you need, or continue to wonder, and experiment with lower-end devices.
I try my best to help others "see the light", and get down to actual video work. Not spend all their time and energy just shopping for tools. That's like shopping for hammers, not building the house, and living in your car.
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10-29-2024, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
VHS decks are mostly in abused shape, totally worthless for capture needs (unless you desire garbage quality), so those are found at Goodwill for under $20 (a tenth of the 90s costs).
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Historical FWIW, my recollection is that at the end of the VHS era big retailers like COSTCO and WALMART actually sold some basicl new VHS VCRs for as low as $39 or so. I recall some bottom-of-the-line S-VHS units for around $120 or so
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