1985 Golden Book Video filter suggestions?

[CaseyStelken]

Hi there! I captured and encoded my first animated video (well, sort-of... it's not traditional cel animation, but one of those animated storybook videos), and I was wondering if anyone has any feedback I could learn from before moving on to do others.

Here is a 53-second compilation of snippets from the capture AVI. As far as I know, this was captured fine(?). I feel pretty confident about it, so I don't blame you if you don't want to download it for review.


And here is my filtered/encoded delivery MP4. I cropped the video a bit, upscaled to 1920p, and applied a few filters to denoise, degrain, sharpen, stabilize the frame, etc:
1985 Golden Book Video - Mercer Mayer's 3 Stories - TRIMMED for testing - A.mp4 (EDIT: If this looks as bad for you after downloading as it does for me, see below.)


Here are some issues that I can't figure out how to remedy. Wondering if anyone has any suggestions:

• There seems to be some luminance shift (or luminance bleed?) throughout the video.
• There's a second or two of "breathing" at the 18-second mark. Any suggestions for this?
• The pan/scan effect at the 33-second mark is a bit "stuttery." Any suggestions on how to make this look a little smoother?
• There seems to be some chroma bleed on red colors (see red text at 00:48) that I can't get to respond to any filters.

If you see any other issues that my eyes haven't yet been trained to recognize, I'd sure appreciate the feedback! Thanks!

Note: I'm sure the most "proper" process for this video would have been to detelecine, but the rolling end credits (and a few other moments) showed a much smoother, cleaner movement when I chose instead to deinterlace with QTGMC. So that's what I went with. I just thought it looked much better.


EDIT: I just downloaded the delivery MP4 that I uploaded to this post, just to make sure it would look okay, and... it looks really bad. The file on my desktop that I uploaded doesn't look that bad. Does the upload process add further compression or something?

Here's the same delivery MP4 video file again, encoded at double the bitrate. It looks virtually identical on my PC to the 4000kbps version, but I'm adding it here in case it displays better when downloaded:
1985 Golden Book Video - Mercer Mayer's 3 Stories - TRIMMED for testing - B 8000kbps.mp4

[Aya_Rei]

There is a lot of jitter during the 24 to 26 second mark. Usually if the jitter only lasts for one frame, then I use this script. Otherwise if it's as bad as that. I turn off the line TBC inside the VCR and use a Panasonic ES15 instead to see if that'll help. Guessing you use avisynth's stabilze filter.

Yeah the majority of the source should be inverse telecined instead of deinterlaced. Black levels were crushed (resulting lost of detail), best to adjust the capture card's proc amp in the capture phase to prevent that from happening, color correcting in post.

Unrelated but man, remember having some Mercer Mayer books as a child.

[CaseyStelken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

There is a lot of jitter during the 24 to 26 second mark.

Yes sir, that's the only spot in the tape where there's jitter like that. That's the main reason I used the stabilize filter. And I see now that it isn't repaired as well in the example I uploaded here as it was in a more recent version I did... I turned the filter down a bit for the example I uploaded, because it had a bit of an undesired effect in a different area of the tape... but I later realized I could adjust both X and Y values for the stabilize filter. So I cranked Y up a bit and left X where it was, and now that section looks real smooth. Thanks for pointing that out!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Yeah the majority of the source should be inverse telecined instead of deinterlaced. Black levels were crushed (resulting lost of detail), best to adjust the capture card's proc amp in the capture phase to prevent that from happening, color correcting in post.

I think I follow what you're saying except the part about black levels being crushed - can you tell me where you're seeing that? To my eyes the blacks throughout the video look fine, but maybe I'm missing something.

I initially did use inverse telecine (with TIVTC - is that what you'd recommend?) because I'm sure this video was filmed at 24fps, but I ended up with some noticeable stutter in the frame rate during the credits scroll at the end of each story. When I switched to QTGMC, everything was much smoother, so I figured I'd go with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Unrelated but man, remember having some Mercer Mayer books as a child.

Hell yeah! Same here. And this tape was one of my favorites - I watched it a ton as a kid. I'm guessing that's why there's some jitter in places, haha.

Thanks for the terrific feedback as always! I don't supposed you have any suggestions on these other issues that I haven't yet figured out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseyStelken

• There seems to be some luminance shift (or luminance bleed?) throughout the video.
• There's a second or two of "breathing" at the 18-second mark. Any suggestions for this?
• The pan/scan effect at the 33-second mark is a bit "stuttery." Any suggestions on how to make this look a little smoother?
• There seems to be some chroma bleed on red colors (see red text at 00:48) that I can't get to respond to any filters.

UPDATE: Regarding the "breathing" or "swelling" at the 18-second mark... I just looked this video up on YouTube, and apparently it's an inherent part of the original video release. Knowing that, it doesn't bother me as much... but I still wouldn't mind fixing it if there's an easy way to do so.

[Selur]

Quote:

There seems to be some luminance shift (or luminance bleed?) throughout the video.

What exactly are you referring to?

Quote:

There seems to be some chroma bleed on red colors (see red text at 00:48) that I can't get to respond to any filters

Aside from manual editing: no good idea

Quote:

The pan/scan effect at the 33-second mark is a bit "stuttery." Any suggestions on how to make this look a little smoother?

a. Replace duplicates with interpolations.
b. Interpolate to a higher rate, then decimate back.

About the frame rate: personally I would have gone for 23.976 fps and tried to get the intro and output somewhat fluent instead of having to handle all the duplicate frames.

Looking at the source:
I would probably go for scene based SpotLess and/or RemoveDirt + strong SMDegrain to deal with the glitches.
Then use BasicVSR++ for some general cleaning. Stap for stabilization and FillDuplicateFrames, FillDrops or some other interpolation trickery. (Frame interpolation, will slow down the whole then quite a bit, especially if one out of 5 frames needs to be replaced with an interpolation,..)
some 'quick' encodes:
29.97fps: script: https://pastebin.com/rnha87Qj, clip: plan to upload it later
23.976fps: script: https://pastebin.com/yqtGp4rw, clip: plan to upload it later
all in all there probably is more possible, but you will need to do scene-by-scene filtering.

[CaseyStelken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

What exactly are you referring to?

Since you're not seeing it, I'm guessing I don't realize what I'm actually looking at and am probably misdiagnosing something. What I'm referring to is most significantly in and around character's eyes, like in this shot (also around the edges of his outfit, the sign, etc):
1985 Golden Book Video - Mercer Mayer's 3 Stories - TRIMMED for testing - B 8000kbps.mp4_s1.jpg

Another example is along the vertical edges of this sign:

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In some areas that I see this effect, it almost looks like it could simply be an actual shadow from the physical cut-out figures they used to animate the video. If that's the case, I'm fine with it of course. Again, my eyes are still learning what to look for, and I can't always tell yet if these shadows (or shifts?) are "supposed to" be there or not...

To be clear, it's not that this is a huge problem for me either way... I don't mind the imperfections of VHS, and I don't need to make this old children's video perfect and pristine. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about my options for "improving" video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

About the frame rate: personally I would have gone for 23.976 fps and tried to get the intro and output somewhat fluent instead of having to handle all the duplicate frames.

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

These next questions are going to show what an extreme novice I am... Brace yourself, and go easy on me, haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

Looking at the source:
I would probably go for scene based SpotLess and/or RemoveDirt + strong SMDegrain to deal with the glitches.
Then use BasicVSR++ for some general cleaning. Stap for stabilization and FillDuplicateFrames, FillDrops or some other interpolation trickery. (Frame interpolation, will slow down the whole then quite a bit, especially if one out of 5 frames needs to be replaced with an interpolation,..)

I did some reading on the "FillDrops" filter, and really like the sound of it...
... Where do I find it? I've scoured Hybrid and can't find it. Is it the version I'm using (2023.3.17.1)? Or do I just need new glasses?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

some 'quick' encodes:
29.97fps: script: https://pastebin.com/rnha87Qj, clip: plan to upload it later
23.976fps: script: https://pastebin.com/yqtGp4rw, clip: plan to upload it later
all in all there probably is more possible, but you will need to do scene-by-scene filtering.

And for my next supernovice question... How do I make use of these scripts? I've seen people share them on here before, but I have no idea what to do with them. I have a fair amount of experience with HTML from years ago, but virtually no experience with any other sort of software coding or scripts. Is there a place in Hybrid I can plug these in or something?

EDIT: Whoa, after digging around I just found Tools -> vsViewer. I take it that's where I make use of these scripts... by copying them (and modifying them to fit my needs and match my file locations) and dropping them into this window?

-- merged --

One more question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

all in all there probably is more possible, but you will need to do scene-by-scene filtering.

While this particular tape isn't important enough to me to do scene-by-scene filtering on, I'm sure there will be times in the future I'll want to do that. I assume the best way to do that is by splitting the capture AVI file into different AVI segments based on the needs of various scenes, filtering the files (scenes) separately, and then merging the filtered files back together... is that right? Or is there a better way that I'm not aware of?

Thanks again!

[Aya_Rei]

Took a crack at restoration work myself, ain't perfect.

Script can be found here

As for scene by scene filtering, another option is using the trim filter from avisynth. To specify what parts of the video will be affected by a specific filter.

An example being this setup

"clip1 = trim(0,227344)
clip2 = trim(227345,229122).Spotless(RadT=3)
clip3 = trim(229123,0)

clip1 ++ clip2 ++ clip3"

First clip is the beginning of the video to the frames I want one filter to be used on, second clip are the frames that have the spotless filter ran on them, third clip is the rest of the video

All clips are combined together, so that in the end, only a small portion of the video uses spotless, while the majority of the video does not use that filter

[Selur]

on my way to bed (1am here), but a few things:
FillDrops and FillDuplicates are both in Hybrid under Filtering->Vapursynth->Frame->Misc.
your Hybrid version (2023.3.17.1) is just too old. (first versions of these were added in 2023.12.02.1)

The scripts I posted were created using Hybrid, by 'clever clicking'.
Hybrid offers some additional option which allow for example restricting a filter to specific frames (Enable Filtering->Vapursynth->Misc->UI->Show 'Apply only to'-controls).
You could also use vsViewer to use these scripts. (note that BasicVSR++ required the torch-addon)

Quote:

I can't always tell yet if these shadows (or shifts?) are "supposed to" be there or not...

I assume that they are meant to be there and are remnants of some pencil drawing,...
(I suspect aside from manually editing the frames in some NLE or image editor, maybe some machine learning filter might remove those shadows, but I doubt any conventional filter will. Maybe some overlay subtracting could work,..)

uploaded some clips&scripts I used to play with: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/6kf...bzzl/filtering

n8

Cu Selur

[CaseyStelken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

your Hybrid version (2023.3.17.1) is just too old. (first versions of these were added in 2023.12.02.1)

I tried updating my software to 2023.12.02.1, and the software told me to talk to you:

Let Selur Know.PNG


(I know, I should just upload to the latest version... but I tried that awhile ago and had trouble with it [thought I can't remember right now what the trouble was], so I went back to the 2023.3.17.1 version that worked for me... and now I'm going to try 2023.12.02.1 to see if I can take advantage of those FillDrops and FillDuplicates filters.)

Maybe I should quit screwing around and just give the latest version a shot again and see if it works for me, I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Yeah the majority of the source should be inverse telecined instead of deinterlaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

About the frame rate: personally I would have gone for 23.976 fps and tried to get the intro and output somewhat fluent instead of having to handle all the duplicate frames.

I see now that you guys of course are correct on this. I knew from the beginning that this animation would have been filmed at 24fps and would have been telecined for VHS, requiring inverse telecine... but as I said before, when I did that I noticed that it resulted in juddered motion on the end credits, and that really stood out and bothered me. Deinterlacing, on the other hand, resulted in nice, smooth credits scrolling... so I figured it was the best choice.

...Over time, however, I realized that the choice to go with deinterlacing resulted in the same juddered motion in several other areas of the video because of the additional frames.

The thing I can't get over is... why? My best guess is that they animated all of this video in 24fps, telecined it for home video, and then... digitally added the end credits for the segments after the video was telecined to 29.97 fps?

That would explain why the overall video had a source frame rate of 24fps, while the end credits appear to have a source frame rate of 29.97fps.

Does that make sense? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the apparent discrepancy in native frame rate we're seeing.

[Selur]

About the error => reset your defaults (and recreate presets to many changed to compensate)

[CaseyStelken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selur

About the error => reset your defaults (and recreate presets to many changed to compensate)

Ah, now I remember why I went back to my old version. After resetting the defaults today in v2023.12.2.01, when I'm under the "Crop/Resize" tab and hit the preview button, it shows the preview upside-down. It only does this under the Crop/Resize tab, not under any other tab when I preview.

I had this same problem a few months ago when I tried updating the software... couldn't figure out what was causing it, so I reverted back to the older version and the problem went away.

Any ideas on what is causing this?

[Aya_Rei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseyStelken

I think I follow what you're saying except the part about black levels being crushed - can you tell me where you're seeing that? To my eyes the blacks throughout the video look fine, but maybe I'm missing something.

Using a histogram, shows that the black levels are out of the 16 to 235 range of the capture card (I'm guessing your capture can only capture those values) meaning that detail in the blacks has been lost, it is best to adjust the brightness and contrast of the capture card in order to prevent crushed blacks and clipped whites during capture.

Also, good call Selur suggested using Filldrops, use the shift + ] shortcut in VirtualDub and was able to detect 15 dropped frames (well, seems to be 15 inserted frames to help keep the audio in sync)

[Selur]

Quote:

. It only does this under the Crop/Resize tab, not under any other tab when I preview.

Probably a different viewer. I usually just open the Vapoursynth Preview and work with that.
Hybrid will add vflip if openDML and rgb input is detected.