Best improvements for my workflows?

[atab]

Hey all.

I've collected some equipment to work on my VHS and camcorder tapes, as well as helping family and friends to digitize their media.

Going to detail my workflows and then follow up with some questions.

VHS and VHS-C:
Samsung SV-5000W -> Composite Out -> Panasonic DMR-ES15 -> S-Video or Composite Out -> I-O Data GV-USB2 -> VirtualDub (Running on 32bit Windows 7 Thinkpad T400, using Huffyuv for compression)

Video8/Hi8/D8 (NTSC):
Sony DCR-TRV740 (TBC and DNR are ON) -> S-video out -> I-O Data GV-USB2 -> VirtualDub

Video8 (PAL):
Canon UC5000E -> Composite Out -> I-o Data GV-USB2 -> VirtualDub

MiniDV (NTSC):
Canon ZR70MC -> FireWire Out -> WinDV (on Thinkpad t400, has a 1394 port)


After that, I do cropping, deinterlace, and resize in Hybrid using QTGMC (Faster preset with source matching, lossless settings, etc. This isn't the focus on this post but I will post on the relevant forums and sections to get more advice on this later).


Upgade thoughts:
- I imagine the best first upgrade I could do is get a VCR that can output in S-video rather than Composite? I do have a variety of PAL and NTSC tapes which makes a multisystem VCR helpful (+ for now I can convert PAL to NTSC @ the VCR stage to get some more use out of the DMR-Es15), but I imagine I'd be better served with a s-video VCR per format.

- While I'd like to buy a better capture card, I think it's out of budget at the moment. I'd have to buy a cheap desktop with PCIE slot as well, and that + currency conversion (+ tariffs) easily overshoot my budget.


Questions:
- Given the above, what's the weakest link in my workflow right now?

- Does the Panasonic DMR-ES15 passthrough only work for NTSC footage? Was wondering if I could use it for my PAL camcorder to help clean up the signal.

- Is the TBC and DNR on the Sony DCR-TRV740 enough, or would there be any benefit in passing it through the DMR-ES15?

- Anything else I could be missing?

EDIT: Fixed "Component Out" to "Composite Out".

[latreche34]

I'm not sure if the Samsung 5000W has component out, It is a composite only VCR, that's probably your weakest point for VHS.

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by atab

Hey all.

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After that, I do cropping, deinterlace, and resize in Hybrid using QTGMC (Faster preset with source matching, lossless settings, etc.

Fine for most needs.

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Upgade thoughts:
- I imagine the best first upgrade I could do is get a VCR that can output in S-video rather than
I do have a variety of PAL and NTSC tapes which makes a multisystem VCR helpful (+ for now I can convert PAL to NTSC @ the VCR stage

That Samsung 5000 VCR is such garbage with NTSC, and not great with PAL. Back when these decks were new, $500+ MSRP, ~25 years ago, I made the bad choice of buying one. It was worse at playing NTSC tapes than my lowest-quality junk VCRs (GE, Quasar, Orion, etc). I should have returned in. I ended up importing a then-new HR-S7965EK JVC S-VHS with the help of a UK friend at the time.

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Component/Composite?

These are not the same.
- composite = video signal "composited"/smushed together into the yellow RCA-type cable.
- component = the 3 cables, RGB (YUV)

There are no component VCRs, and it was never a component format. And no, then output from a "combo" player only output the DVD side via component. (Even if it had, the internals of all plain VHS combo decks is internally composited.)

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to get some more use out of the DMR-Es15), but I imagine I'd be better served with a s-video VCR per format.

In theory, you could get something like a non-TBC Panasonic FS88 deck, and use the ES10/15 as the line TBC(ish). That's a budget route. I don't recall off-hand if the FS88 has a DOC (dropout compensation, which you want). I don't know the non-TBC JVC models off-hand like I do the NTSC models.

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- While I'd like to buy a better capture card, I think it's out of budget at the moment. I'd have to buy a cheap desktop with PCIE slot as well, and that + currency conversion (+ tariffs) easily overshoot my budget.

The card isn't great, not terrible, but it's not your "weak link" right now...

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Questions:
- Given the above, what's the weakest link in my workflow right now?

That VCR is, 100%.

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- Does the Panasonic DMR-ES15 passthrough only work for NTSC footage? Was wondering if I could use it for my PAL camcorder to help clean up the signal.

- If NTSC ES10, NTSC only.
- If PAL ES10, both PAL and NTSC.

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- Is the TBC and DNR on the Sony DCR-TRV740 enough, or would there be any benefit in passing it through the DMR-ES15?

It's a DV camera, so the camera outputs DV. It's too late for ES10. But the line TBC inside should suffice for the moderate line needed. The main worry is frame. Those Digital8 (DV) cameras are not the best at playing analog footage. But if you just have a few, uber-budget, you can keep it. The loss isn't good (to 4:1:1 NTSC), but that VCR is severely degrading quality.

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- Anything else I could be missing?

- UPS?
- Ample storage/backup once captured?

- How many tapes?
- What recording mode are your VHS tapes? SP, LP, EP/SLP, or a mix? If mix, % of each? If not known, guestimate.
- What % of your VHS collection is from a camcorder, a VCR, and retail?
- What era are your tapes from, % of each? 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s?
- Are you aware of any problems with the tapes? Either with the signal, or physical? (mold, etc)

[atab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That Samsung 5000 VCR is such garbage with NTSC, and not great with PAL. Back when these decks were new, $500+ MSRP, ~25 years ago, I made the bad choice of buying one. It was worse at playing NTSC tapes than my lowest-quality junk VCRs (GE, Quasar, Orion, etc). I should have returned in. I ended up importing a then-new HR-S7965EK JVC S-VHS with the help of a UK friend at the time.

Good to know. I have other crappy VCRs I can compare with (that generic blue stripe Panasonic VCR in NTSC), but perhaps saving up for a better s-vhs vcr is in order.

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These are not the same.
- composite = video signal "composited"/smushed together into the yellow RCA-type cable.
- component = the 3 cables, RGB (YUV)

There are no component VCRs, and it was never a component format. And no, then output from a "combo" player only output the DVD side via component. (Even if it had, the internals of all plain VHS combo decks is internally composited.)

Thanks for the terminology correction, I should have proofread my message lol.

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That VCR is, 100%.

I know the recommendation is to get a higher end JVC S-VHS player (as seen in the recommended list on this forum), but that may be out of my price range for a while. My current hope is to try to get lucky on local resellers/marketplace/etc for a usable S-VHS VCR.

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- If NTSC ES10, NTSC only.
- If PAL ES10, both PAL and NTSC.

I assume most rules that apply to the ES10 apply to the ES15?

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It's a DV camera, so the camera outputs DV. It's too late for ES10. But the line TBC inside should suffice for the moderate line needed. The main worry is frame. Those Digital8 (DV) cameras are not the best at playing analog footage. But if you just have a few, uber-budget, you can keep it. The loss isn't good (to 4:1:1 NTSC), but that VCR is severely degrading quality.

Interesting, so even if I use the S-video output, is it still converting to DV internally prior to output? I guess a Hi-8 camera would be preferred here?

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- UPS?

Would be helpful, but is non-essential currently. It's something I've thought about since the Thinkpad laptop I'm using has a non-functional battery, so power interrupts are a problem.

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- Ample storage/backup once captured?

Thankfully I have around 8-10tb available to me now.

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- How many tapes?
- What recording mode are your VHS tapes? SP, LP, EP/SLP, or a mix? If mix, % of each? If not known, guestimate.
- What % of your VHS collection is from a camcorder, a VCR, and retail?

Number of VHS tapes: Around 50-60 VHS tapes. I'd say roughly 60% NTSC, 40% PAL. There is significant content overlap (around 40%) between the tapes (Mostly in the PAL tapes, with family footage sent to overseas family. These would be +1 generation copies to the origins (which were copies from Camcorder to VHS to begin with)).

The vast majority are SP. Some are LP (~3-5 total) and SLP (~2-3 total).

3 VHS-C tapes (I have a battery-powered motorized adapter that's worked when I tested it)

Around 10 or so camcorder tapes. 8 are Video8. 2 are Hi8. All are NTSC

None of the camcorder tapes or VHS tapes are retail. All of them are family footage that was shot on camcorder. So I think all the VHS footage would be copied at least once from camcorder to VHS. In the case of PAL footage, copied another time from NTSC to PAL (using cheap services in the 90s).

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- What era are your tapes from, % of each? 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s?
- Are you aware of any problems with the tapes? Either with the signal, or physical? (mold, etc)

The tapes are from early 90s to early 2000s. So from around 1992 to 2004. The majority would be 1996 to 2001.
- No mold thankfully. Some of the VHS tapes (around 10%?) have signal issues (constant tearing/flagging, vertical roll, etc [NOTE: I haven't re-tested these with the DMR ES-15, hopefully it helps]). One camcorder tape I reviewed seemed to have degraded near the start of the tape, but was fine otherwise.
- Some of the VHS tapes (I don't have an estimate for %, but at least a couple) are clearly recorded over random footage. Local news footage, sports games, etc. So a few of the VHS tapes are re-used as well.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by atab

I know the recommendation is to get a higher end JVC S-VHS player (as seen in the recommended list on this forum), but that may be out of my price range for a while. My current hope is to try to get lucky on local resellers/marketplace/etc for a usable S-VHS VCR.

A good model non-TBC JVC, in excellent truly working condition, can be $200. That was the new price almost 30 years ago (without any inflation). Not bad at all. non-TBC recommended JVC, with ES10/15, is vastly better than your current situation for image quality (audio can vary).

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I assume most rules that apply to the ES10 apply to the ES15?

ES10, ES15, essentially the same.

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Interesting, so even if I use the S-video output, is it still converting to DV internally prior to output? I guess a Hi-8 camera would be preferred here?

It DV converts on playback, and converts back to analog. This supposedly isn't true to every model, but I've never seen one not show obvious DV loss.

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Would be helpful, but is non-essential currently. It's something I've thought about since the Thinkpad laptop I'm using has a non-functional battery, so power interrupts are a problem.

Power outages/fluctuations destroy gear.

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Number of VHS tapes: Around 50-60 VHS tapes. I'd say roughly 60% NTSC, 40% PAL. There is significant content overlap (around 40%) between the tapes (Mostly in the PAL tapes, with family footage sent to overseas family. These would be +1 generation copies to the origins (which were copies from Camcorder to VHS to begin with)).
The vast majority are SP. Some are LP (~3-5 total) and SLP (~2-3 total).
3 VHS-C tapes (I have a battery-powered motorized adapter that's worked when I tested it)
Around 10 or so camcorder tapes. 8 are Video8. 2 are Hi8. All are NTSC
None of the camcorder tapes or VHS tapes are retail. All of them are family footage that was shot on camcorder. So I think all the VHS footage would be copied at least once from camcorder to VHS. In the case of PAL footage, copied another time from NTSC to PAL (using cheap services in the 90s).
The tapes are from early 90s to early 2000s. So from around 1992 to 2004. The majority would be 1996 to 2001.
- No mold thankfully. Some of the VHS tapes (around 10%?) have signal issues (constant tearing/flagging, vertical roll, etc [NOTE: I haven't re-tested these with the DMR ES-15, hopefully it helps]). One camcorder tape I reviewed seemed to have degraded near the start of the tape, but was fine otherwise.
- Some of the VHS tapes (I don't have an estimate for %, but at least a couple) are clearly recorded over random footage. Local news footage, sports games, etc. So a few of the VHS tapes are re-used as well.

50 VHS is a lot. Get that better VCR before proceeding further.

Right now, you're not doing well on the VHS. But it can be a passable/functional budget setup with some degree of quality, quite easily, and quite affordable (well under $500 all-in).