MiniDV camcorders as TBC? + VCR questions

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by vhsdigital34

Thank you lordsmurf. As always, very helpful info. I have gotten a hold of an XP PC just for this project. (P4 2.4 Ghz 2GB ram). If going without the ADVC110, is video/audio sync going to be a problem?

No.

This actually irritates me, as it was BS marketing from Canopus that insinuated only their DV boxes could keep audio sync. Congratulations, you've fallen prey to underhanded marketing tactics! Do you have a lesser opinion of Canopus now too? (Though note it was the old Canopus, which no longer exists, as they were bought out by Grass Valley some years ago, and the old Canopus BS machine is now gone. Good riddance! No loss there!)

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The av-collection thread talks about selling to them but nothing about buying one of the many AG-1980 machines they refurbish(?) and sell. I've private messaged them and they claim they've sold hundreds

What's the difference? Buy or selling is honestly the same when a person tries to cheat others in financial transactions. Note that volksjager's complaint was NOT the first complaint I've seen for them online. There's a trend here with providing subpar services.

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and haven't gotten complaints and the few they did they'd either correct or send another one back (shipping back to them at my expense)

So which is it ... no complaints or just a few?

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I had an AVT-8710 ready to purchase on eBay ($150) but wasn't sure so I've waited till I got a response. It ended a few days ago and it was the (unfortunately for me) the green/black version used in a studio.

Yep, that was the one you wanted.

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Is there one you have lying around or someone you know reputable that's willing to sell?

Anything anybody has would (should!) be listed in the marketplace forum: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/marketplace/

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The TBC-1000 seems outside my price range.

Not really. A used one can be found for $250 ... at least last time I checked around.

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I'm just trying to convert my tapes so owning multiple decks probably isn't good in terms of return/cost for me so I'm looking to stick with one deck. I'll try to post pictures soon so we know what we're dealing with.

How many tapes are you looking to convert?

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I've also sent in a few tapes to a local pro. They're using ADVC300 connected to digital rapids DRC-500M broadcast card. Does the ADVC300 also lose half it's color? Do you believe the DRC-500M is worth it?

No pro worth his salt would ever use Canopus hardware.

The ADVC 300 is actually worse than the ADVC 100/110 cards, as it's still only DV (loses color data), and also has some blurry "filtering" abilities. Understand that the entire Canopus line of hardware is from the Pentium III era of the late 1990s. They never updated it, and continue to sell it to this day. People think "it's expensive, so it must be good!" but it's not.

Digital Rapids DRC-500M is another card that's expensive but outdated. All of the streaming functions are better done with modern software. The AVI and MPEG isn't anything special.

I always cringe when somebody gets their tapes converted on ADVC hardware. It just looks bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhsdigital34

As promised, the image attachment showing the type of error i'm getting with line TBC on from the JVC.

A screenshot won't help here. I need to see a video clip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhsdigital34

Here's a screenshot from a GOVIDEO DVR4300 t

That's horrible.

Yes, you really do need a better VCR -- and the Panasonic AG-1980P may best fit your need.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

3x the bandwidth of the VCR, much better than you can get from a typical VHS SLP recording.

This is misleading. The bandwidth is not the issue, and never has been. It's the way the colors are co-sited, and lost in the conversion. DV was never intended as a conversion format for VHS -- just shooting. The conversion is what AVI and MPEG was intended for, and was the shady DV boxes came to market at the same time as the MPEG hardware. A 15mbit (or 25-50, if you prefer) MPEG is much better than DV, and at the same (or even better!) file sizes as DV.

Canopus was the ONLY manufacturer (beside DataVideo, which licensed from Canopus) to ever released DV boxes. Why do you think nobody else ever got into the DV game?

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The ADVC300 ... and a line TBC (of limited value).

The box has never been proven to have any actual TBC functions, and it was discussed online many times in year past. As far as any of us could ever tell, it's a "TBC" only because they say so. Same for many DVD recorders. The video industry has a very loose definition of what a TBC is and does, so you really have to be careful. Ask yourself what you want a TBC to do. Then find one that is proven to have that functionality. In terms of VHS>digital work, that usually means a DataVideo TBC or an older CTB-100/AVT-8710.

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A different capture device may give a more accurate capture of what comes out of the VCR, but it may not be noticeably better to a viewer of the end product - it may just drain your billfold quicker.

A better card can be has for as little as $50. The Canopus boxes are at least $100+

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My point with respect to conversion of VHS to DVD is one has to decide when to stop polishing the turd.

I agree with this ... but that decision should come during the post-capture software restoration phase ... not the capturing hardware phase (VCR, TBC, capture cards). That's giving in to quickly. That's the horrible "good enough" mentality that I despise. Those are people that buy $50-100 boxes from Walmart or Best Buy, use there existing VCR, and just "live with" whatever garbage is outputted. The Canopus DV boxes are just a small step above that.

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A point of greatly diminished returns can be reached quickly. Kind of like when teaching a pig to tell time - should we give it a Rolex, or will a Timex be sufficient. Each of us has to decide at what point we are satisfied so we can finish and move on to the next project.

Yeah, but 60 seconds is 60 seconds. So in that regard, a watch is the same piece of hardware at its core. With video, things aren't that clear cut. It's not just a situation of finding the prettier device. They function completely different. When something costs more AND looks worse, avoiding it seems like a no-brainer to me.

_______________

Now, that all said, I can understand workflows where the Canopus DV boxes are the best solution.

[vhsdigital34]

Hi Lordsmurf,

Here's the video of the JVC. I've used iMovie via mac to make this clip as the original avi is about 250mb and would take forever to rar and upload. Unfortunately it only outputs to .m4v which I believe VLC can play. iMovie also didn't keep the aspect ratio so it stretched it out further to the left and right. At least the error on the guy on the left is still shown. Does it look like a TBC would clean this up or would I need the panny?

Attached.

More accurately, the pro shop was duped and got the ADVC300 which lead me to ADVC110. I'm not necessarily upset with canopus, just the fact I've wasted a ton of time reading about how good it was supposed to be. From my perspective, they did what they had to do (sell units). And most of what I saw about the ADVC was from Grass Valley's forum and amazon and there's a lot of positive vibe there so I figured I was somewhat covered (another lesson learned). I normally do more research (i.e. ask around) but figured if the pro shop thought it was good, it's probably good enough for me (I was wrong). Now I have to sell this junk. Hopefully I can sell it near 170.00…

I do believe there is a difference between buy side and sell side but it depends on the circumstances. On the old units they're selling, if they do replace heads, etc, and if they do play well, isn't that increasing the stock of "fixed/working" units available (even if it's just the mechanics side)? This only holds if the units they sell have at least a somewhat decent track record. I was just curious if anyone had bought from them to find out. I've since found another seller (morgansgoods1) and have purchased one for 250. He claims he's had a technician look at it and the technician said "it doesn't seem to have had many hours on them as they were spotless inside." I'm a little skeptical as all of these are old units but he does have a return/refund policy and was very quick with his response. Hopefully it works out.

When selling electronic equipment there's no such thing as having entirely no complaints especially with equipment that has multiple things that could go wrong as these. All I need was for the VCR to play it back with TBC. As long as those two worked (out of the multiple controls) I'm good. I do completely agree though how they handled the situation with Volksjager was completely in the wrong. It's just with such a limited number of units working, any good purchase is considered extremely lucky and it would be prudent to turn over every rock (even if there's a lot of mold on the surface).

I'll continue looking for the green/black model. I'm probably converting anywhere between 50 to 70 tapes but they've all been recorded the same way with the same VCR so if one works, they should mostly work.

Is the DRC-500M completely not worth it? They've had the tapes since January so to ask a refund would seem to be asking for too much (especially after I've asked them to try multiple different workflows). They've already done the conversion with one workflow. Seems like my best bet is to ask for the best possible workflow I can get from them? If that's straight to DRC-500M, I may have to bite the bullet. I'm just hoping it's not too different from the source.

Do you have the AWI card you were looking to find? I'm still interested. I'm now also interested in a good sound blaster PCI card if you have one as well.

You've mentioned how the GOVIDEO looks horrendous. I agree the picture looks hazy and has a few other issues but I was surprised how it didn't produce any wavy lines like the JVC did. I'm scratching my head wondering how is that possible and frustrated at the same time that the other more expensive decks does better with everything else but can't seem to keep the picture in check with the horizontal lines. With the JVC TBC/DNR on though, it does seem to smoothen out details and makes people look like plastic on certain scenes. Wish they've separated the line TBC from the DNR..

Thanks again!

[volksjager]

the govideo pic is very grainy and has chroma issues - look at the grey jacket see all the color blotches

some tapes especially EP mode just dont work good in JVC decks

another thing about AV-collection is every 1980 he list has a file photo and states "low hours of use"
i know for a fact all he does is buy broken/untested units from ebay and fix them - so how does he know "low hours of use" considering most 1980 where used by businesses and schools finding a low hour deck is probably not that common.

[vhsdigital34]

Hmm. I thought it said somewhere they replaced the heads but it looks like they say they replace the capacitors (not even sure what that is). If it was the heads then I assumed low hour of use once replaced was implied. If they didn't even do that then you're right, that's very misleading. I've already purchased from someone else though that a "technician" looked through. Fingers crossed

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

...they say they replace the capacitors (not even sure what that is).

An electronic component, typically used to block DC voltage, perform filtering, and smooth out ripple. The AG-1980s were built with capacitors (about 230 electrolytics) that are prone to failure over time (in 10-15 years they start to age/wear out) at a rate arguably higher than most industrial/commercial class electronics. The good news is they can be repaired, the bad news is it takes time, electronics technician skills and tools, and money to make the repairs.

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...between 50 to 70 tapes

Thats 300-420 hours of video if they are full EP/SLP tapes. If recorded, say, to DVD at a 1.5 hour per DVD data rate that amounts to 200 to 280 DVDs. In any case a significant undertaking on a home/hobby basis, especially if you have a day job. Uncompressed 8-bit NTSC SD video runs about 70 GB per hour, so 300 hours is about 21 TB. The good news is that desktop-class 4 TB drives are down to around $200 each now so it translates to about $1000 in hard drive storage.

It boils down to defining the objective, available budget, costing the alternative appraoches, and making what ever compromises need to make objectives, budget, and approach to get an acceptable end product.

[vhsdigital34]

according to this post (from lordsmurf) about converting to Huffyuv, it's about 40GB/hr.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...pture-avi.html

New 4TB drives can be had for $120 each if you wait for the right moment. I'm sure at some point, I'll be weeding out some tapes/footage. I have 50 to 70 to go through. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll convert them all (but probably will convert most of them). That doesn't even take into account several of them only have a few pieces of footage I'm looking to transfer. It's all fluid at this point. I'm sure it'll take me a while to get through it (once I finally get my rig/workflow ready) but in this instance, time is my friend since as more time passes, the more pricing on hard drives fall. I just need to get the right equipment as tapes will generally last 60 years according to this forum (I've learned so much just reading for months here)

Also, as of now, I'm segregating between "must convert now" vs "can convert later". I'm not too worried about that end of the process. Hope the AG-1980 works out. If it does, just need the ATI card, sound blaster, and field TBC.

[lordsmurf]

If the tapes are truly 6 hours each (not just SLP mode), and if I did the work, it'd cost around $4,500 to convert 50 tapes. This also assumes every tape is cooperative.

As pointed out, that's a lot of hours.
- the human hours needed often takes at least another 0.5x runtime
- the computer/processing takes another 2x runtime

So "only" 300 hours of footage is at least 150 hours or more of "you" (or "me") time. As well as at least 600 hours of computer time.

Do the math. That's about $15/hour. Not much money, when you look at it that way!

You have to "double up" projects in tandem to make it worthwhile. It slows down both projects some, but the overall hourly wage is better. Otherwise, I wouldn't do it.

As I've stated for more than decade now, video work takes time. If you want fast, you can get a DVD recorder and do a $hitty job in realtime -- like the Go.Video deck. If you want any degree of quality, it takes time and funds.

Just something I wanted to add here.

This excludes all the media costs -- discs, drives, etc. As well as authoring fees, if discs are required.

For the other wants -- audio cards, etc -- look/ask here: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/marketplace/

[vhsdigital34]

Also, how does the Soundblaster PCI card work? I'm assuming I should use the composite audio cables for this. Do the Soundblaster cards have a composite audio in for both red and white? I can't recall having a Soundblaster card with these connections in the 90s

[volksjager]

i use a soundblaster audigy 2ZS - you can either use the cables from the AIW card, an internal cable, or a composite (red/white) "Y" to phono jack cable to the blue input

[vhsdigital34]

So does that mean it'll be mono instead of stereo?

@ Lordsmurf,

Just got the AG-1980 today and tried the same SLP tape. Seems like it's right off the bat brighter than the JVC and people look less like plastic (less smooth). The TBC seems to work as there's a noticeable difference between having it on and off. It does behave similarly in terms if the trouble I've been having with the JVC in terms of having distorted horizontal lines randomly showing up. I'm assuming both VCR's TBCs correct lines going from left to right (horizontal) but not top to bottom (vertical). Is this accurate? Is a TBC the answer I'm looking for here? If so, should I stick with the JVC? I'd like an expanded description as to why the panny would be better. Thank you

[dpalomaki]

Less plastic (less smooth) maybe the result of video noise reduction in the JVC, perhaps too excess. (Judge from the captured video files.)

I would go with the VCR that gives you the best image with a given tape. With 50-70 tapes to convert, if they are close keep both in case one fails.

[vhsdigital34]

Hi Lordsmurf,

This is what the AG-1980 is producing (I've been able to split using just winrar without reducing the size of the original). This is an S-Video capture via ADVC110 (not sure how the "MPEG-2 broadcast specs" works). Will an external TBC correct the time base issue I'm having here as it seems as expected the horizontal lines are solid but the vertical lines are wobbly or is this the best I'm going to get even if I had an external TBC so I should move forward with what I have? I'd also like to know if this AG-1980 is playing back SLP tape the way one would expect. TBC definitely works as there's a noticeable difference when on and off.

Also, with the virtualdub portion, which specs are the "MPEG-2 broadcast specs" for the lossy? Is there an actual compression called "MPEG-2 broadcast specs" or does virtualdub need to be tweaked to produce those specs, and if so, how do we get there? Whether via Huffyuv or "MPEG-2 broadcast specs", do we capture the footage raw and then put the video through either of the two or do we capture through these compression/lossless methods running? And if so, is there a guide somewhere on the site? I'm interested to find out how to use the "MPEG-2 broadcast specs" compression so I can ditch the ADVC110.

Thank you very much!

[lordsmurf]

I see minimal horizontal jitter (timebase errors) that may not be correctable. If I was doing the project, I'd compare the Panasonic to a JVC deck (both SR-V10U and HR-S9800U), to see which TBC performs better on this specific tape. An external TBC will not solve a jitter issue. Jitter is a visual error, and the external TBC is for cleaning the signal - not the image.

MPEG-2 broadcast specs are MPEG-2 anywhere from 10 mbps to 50 mbps (15-25 typical). No, it does not have a
MPEG-2 broadcast specs" label. One of the Matrox codecs is required for VirtualDub export. Or YMPEG, but that's a buggy former payware from a defunct developer ("company"). MPEG-2 broadcast specs can also be 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, and may or may not be MP@ML profile. Unlike DVD-Video or Blu-ray, broadcast specs have a much looser definition. Currently, no, there's not a guide for this.

[vhsdigital34]

Thank you very much Lordsmurf. I really appreciate it. I don't have the two JVC units you've mentioned but I do have the JVC HR-S7600U and I've uploaded the file from the same scene here (captured and split the same way as the panny). Am I correct to assume you've mentioned the two specific JVC units because you believe they can potentially help with this type of error the most or would my S7600U produce similar results as those? Is it also implied based on the sample of the panny I've provided that the AVT-8710 would not help me with these tapes? If so, that'd help reduce my costs (especially if it wasn't going to contribute here). I have a 14 day return policy on the AG-1980. I've noticed the jitters more on the panny than on the JVC. Does that mean my panny is defective and I should attempt to return ASAP or is that just how the panny would play it back vs the JVC?

Also, if I pick up a soundblaster, would it only be in mono? If not, how would I connect the red and white composite cables to take in the stereo output (if even possible/cost effective)?

Was also wondering if you ever found that AIW card (or if you're still using it) you've mentioned below. If still in use, do you know approximately when you'd be willing to sell it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I may have an ATI All In Wonder PCI card in perfect shape. I'll need to check it out first. I have a table setup in a store room here, and am tinkering with several systems -- mostly get prove Windows 7 can run ATI All In Wonder cards without issues. Almost there!

Thanks again!! This forum has been great so far!!

[vhsdigital34]

Between the JVC HR-S7600U and Pannasonic AG-1980, which one should I go with considering the samples?

[vhsdigital34]

Hi,

Can anyone please let me know? Looks like this question went unnoticed

[msgohan]

If forced to choose between those two videos I would rather watch the JVC, because it doesn't have those horizontal jitters (e.g. his tie). That said, the Panasonic looks more "detailed" to me (but too hard-edged).

Fox-AG-1980.jpg

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[vhsdigital34]

So I've tested the workflow on one of our family tapes.

Panny -> ATI 7500 (PCI) -> virtualdub (huffyuv)

640x480 YUY2 (should I use 720x480 if I want to eventually burn it on a playable blu ray or future format?
PCM 48000Hz stereo 16bit
Frame rate: 29.97
No cropping

I was expecting to see 35-40gb per hour as mentioned here but I'm getting 23gb per hour. Am I doing something wrong?

I'm also noticing dropped frames (maybe 2 or 3) only within the first 10-15 seconds of capture. I had antivirus turned off under task manager -> processes and had virtualdub priority set to "above normal". Is this normal? Do I just have to capture 15 seconds before I press play on the VCR?

[vhsdigital34]

Just went back and checked again. So it's not dropped frames but jitter that's causing a few split seconds to skip a beat during the first 15 seconds. Anyone else experience this? Doesn't seem to happen if I capture 15 seconds of static (i.e. not hitting play on VCR) but noticed that increases the file size significantly. Would uninstalling MMC help while capturing through virtualdub? Thoughts?