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  #1  
12-19-2011, 11:59 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hello guys,

First thanks to admin and staff for this site.

Is that commun workflow step to deinterlace VHS video after capture....I can be missing something...I am far from being a expert.

I would like to have your tought on this topic.

I need to create archives from VHS-PAL. I read many topics that says that you don't need to deinterlace if you aim is not to create streaming. In fact you will lose some information during the proccess. I guess that I can deinterlace in Adobe premiere pro (the one I have) after the capture.

But then I read this topic, that you can deinterlace, without losing anything, by capturing at higher resolution.

http://www.divx-digest.com/articles/vhs_capture.html

I will appreicate you tough of the subject because my experience says that there is often worlds beetween theory and pratice, and me I don't have much pratice...

Regards
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  #2  
12-22-2011, 09:23 AM
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Deinterlacing is always a destructive process. So it's best avoided.

However, some workflows require deinterlacing. For example, somebody that converts VHS tapes for Youtube viewing. That process requires the interlaced VHS video be converted into a digital progressive stream. Quite a few restoration workflows carry the same requirement, due to the way the filters function.


As far as the divx-digest guide is concerned...

Quote:
Date Added: Apr 1, 2001
Last Updated: Apr 1, 2001
Very outdated information. Anything written before 2004 is generally worth ignoring. Things changed around that time, between video capture cards, DVD recorders, and quite a bit of software available. Earlier methods were slipshod at best.

Quote:
I'm no expert in digital video
Not to seem condescending to the person who wrote it, but this is quite obvious. If I were to write an article titled "How to Butcher VHS Video", then my article would share a lot of the same content as this guide does!

Quote:
If you search through the internet looking for information on the VHS resolution, you will find basically 352x240 at 29.967fps (Frames Per Second) for NTSC and 352x288 at 25fps for PAL-M. Yeah, right. You capture with that resolution and you get a video that looks like ***. So all those documents were wrong? No, they were inaccurate, or maybe just incomplete. The VHS video works with the interlaced system (not progressive), which means it draws every frame twice on the screen. In fact, every frame of an interlaced video is divided in two fields (the reason for this is a long story that comes from the first TV sets. ... Those two fields mean that every frame carries much more than just 240 or 288 lines of information. If you capture at 352x240 or 352x288 you'll be skipping every second field, which results in only half of the resolution.
This is accurate information, regarding interlace. At the time, many people were insisting VCD's 352x240 resolution was "VHS quality" because they were confused about "x240" (digital pixels) versus "240 lines" (VHS resolution). While both numbers were 240, the represented different measurements. The x240 is vertical, while the 240 lines is horizontal (as well as expressed in non-digital terms). 240x480 would have been more accurate than 352x240, as numbers to describe VHS resolution.

Quote:
break the video color information into 16x16 pixel blocks. he smaller the resolution you use, the bigger the aparent size of those blocks will be. So, even if your video source has a very low resolution, you should capture it with at least 320x240, or the results will look weird.
This is meaningless jabberwocky. I makes almost no sense. And it's not accurate when it does.

Quote:
There's also a great difference between videos captured from a VHS source and the ones ripped from DVDs: the noise. If you compress a DVD ripped video at 352x240 with divx, you get a good result, because the source video didn't have any noise. On the other hand, if you compress a VHS source video at the same resolution, the noise will seem to be amplified, and will take a lot of the stream bandwidth.
^ This was accurate.

Quote:
If you want your capture to look just like the VHS source (unfortunately it can't look any better), capture at 640x480 at 29.967fps, and then DEINTERLACE it. You can do that with softwares like Adobe Premiere or VirtualDub (this one is highly recommended
This is absolutely horrible advice. In fact, in 2001, it was far worse than it is now. At least VirtualDub and Premiere both contain semi-decent deinterlacing options in 2011. In 2001, everything was drop-frame or blended, making it look rotten. The irony here is this advice effectively makes the initial "don't capture 352x240" advice null. Whether captured at 352x240, or later deinterlaced in an editor, then result would have looked the same.

Quote:
an ATI ALL IN WONDER PRO with 8Mb
^ This was a terrible video capture card.

Quote:
it's recommended to deinterlace the captured video afterwards to save space and improve quality.
^ This was inaccurate. You don't improve quality by discarding picture data.

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  #3  
12-22-2011, 10:06 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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If you want to archive, you capture in Huffyuv AVI (lossless compression) and store the AVI as is. Then from there you can go to be making DVD, DiVx, deinterlace or any other format while always keeping the original interlaced file.
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  #4  
12-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Thanks for your inputs...I had the feeling that deinterlacing was "adding" more trouble than anything else...but I am thankfull that someone with knowledge (like you) put things in the right context with facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Deinterlacing is always a destructive process. So it's best avoided.
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  #5  
12-22-2011, 11:42 AM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hello metaleonid,

your affirmation raise a good question to me. Does it mean that winDV or extase DV capture free softwares capture AVI in a non lossless compression format?

I ask because to be honest I never ask myselft if these programs were doing acqusition in a lossless compression way...

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
If you want to archive, you capture in Huffyuv AVI (lossless compression) and store the AVI as is. Then from there you can go to be making DVD, DiVx, deinterlace or any other format while always keeping the original interlaced file.
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  #6  
12-22-2011, 11:45 AM
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DV is a lossy 5:1 data compression.

With NTSC video, it also has a fairly lossy 4:1:1 colorspace compression (worse than DVD).
With PAL, the color is 4:2:0, the same as DVD.

DV25 (mini-DV, consumer DV) is not lossless.
It is inside of an AVI container, but remember that AVI is not a "video format".

If you search the site for "DV", you'll come across a number of articles and forum posts on the topic.

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  #7  
12-22-2011, 12:04 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
If you want to archive, you capture in Huffyuv AVI (lossless compression) and store the AVI as is. Then from there you can go to be making DVD, DiVx, deinterlace or any other format while always keeping the original interlaced file.
With YouTube, the quick method I use is VirtualDub's built in yadif deinterlacer. For more advanced workflows like PAL<>NTSC conversions or temporal filtering, I have been experimenting with the QTGMC AviSynth script with some pretty impressive results. The downside is getting it setup and the fact that its REALLY SLOW in processing video.
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12-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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I read a bit about colorimetric theory...but to be honest...right now the only thing I know is that I will capture my PAL-VHS via ACDV-300, so far acquisition worked well with Premiere pro and Extase. ACDV-300 seem to be a expensive capture device that I will probably discard if I was consult before initial purchase. At least I succed to get a JVC s-vhs HR7600EK in wich I put more hope vs "speudo TBC" from ACDV-300.

Thanks for the infos


Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
DV is a lossy 5:1 data compression.

With NTSC video, it also has a fairly lossy 4:1:1 colorspace compression (worse than DVD).
With PAL, the color is 4:2:0, the same as DVD.

DV25 (mini-DV, consumer DV) is not lossless.
It is inside of an AVI container, but remember that AVI is not a "video format".

If you search the site for "DV", you'll come across a number of articles and forum posts on the topic.
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  #9  
12-22-2011, 12:06 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
Hello metaleonid,

your affirmation raise a good question to me. Does it mean that winDV or extase DV capture free softwares capture AVI in a non lossless compression format?

I ask because to be honest I never ask myselft if these programs were doing acqusition in a lossless compression way...

Thanks
I don't know anything about estase DV, but AFAIK WinDV captures in DV format which is 5:1 compression and 4:1:1 color space.

Basically I have 2 capture devices: the Philips SAA713xxx based TV Tuner card and Canopus ADVC-300.

I use the 1st one to capture in Huffyuv lossless AVI. I use it mainly to capture from the high quality VHS cassettes that are of high importance to me. The process of capturing and syncing audio/video takes a long time. Fortunately I don't have many of those to deal with.

I use the 2nd one (Canopus) to capture in DV (because it doesn't give any other option) with WinDV. I use it mainly with not so great quality VHS cassettes and that are not high importance to me. I use 3d noise reduction during capturing. The capture quality doesn't look worse than the original. The 4:1:1 color space doesn't make worse what wasn't great and sharp to begin with. And plus, the end result motion has far less noise than the original VHS which is satisfactory to me. This process is very quick.

What I do is not necessarily what you might want to do but perhaps you might want to consider those as options. But one thing. If you want to archive, do not deinterlace.
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  #10  
12-22-2011, 12:13 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
For more advanced workflows like PAL<>NTSC conversions or temporal filtering, I have been experimenting with the QTGMC AviSynth script with some pretty impressive results. The downside is getting it setup and the fact that its REALLY SLOW in processing video.
I use AVISynth script for PAL->NTSC conversion. I took it from someone on internet and then modified it myself. I use slight variations depending if the original footage progressive or interlaced. I use TDeint function. One thing is that it gives various results depending on the original footage even if footage is interlaced. I once converted the interlaced PAL VHS to NTSC DVD. The footage was wedding. The end result DVD was outstanding. Motion were smooth as if the original footage was shot by an NTSC camera. I then converted a music concert from interlaced PAL VHS to NTSC DVD. Used the same AVISynth script. The result were horrible. All the time here and there I would get repeated and dropped frames during PAL->NTSC conversion. I can post the script I use here by the way.

--Leonid
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  #11  
12-22-2011, 12:20 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
I read a bit about colorimetric theory...but to be honest...right now the only thing I know is that I will capture my PAL-VHS via ACDV-300, so far acquisition worked well with Premiere pro and Extase. ACDV-300 seem to be a expensive capture device that I will probably discard if I was consult before initial purchase. At least I succed to get a JVC s-vhs HR7600EK in wich I put more hope vs "speudo TBC" from ACDV-300.

Thanks for the infos
That's ok. It has preview function. Play with settings a bit. Try Strong 3d noise reduction, but either weak or NO 2d noise reduction. Play with 3d noise reduction. Now remember, that the end result is going to be compressed. Thus post processing is not recommended unless your final destination is uncompressed AVI which is still going to be limited to DV compression. That's why I recommend all the cleaning filters be done during capture process. If you have JVC S-VHS deck, make sure it's in Edit mode. Don't put it in auto or soft or sharp modes. You want noise reduction and damage to the original footage to be done not more than once.
In Autogain filter (2nd video tab), try to select fixed rather than auto and reduce Y a bit to make sure you don't have White Peak spread all over your picture when it has bright moments.

And by the way. If you use ADVC-300, use WinDV. Don't use anything else.

And by the way, I personally think ADVC is a good device. Maybe overpriced, but it's good at what it does. And I haven't had any dropped frames with it. If it had an option to capture uncompressed or with lossless compression with 4:2:2 colorspace, then it would probably be the near to perfect device.
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12-22-2011, 06:01 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hi metaleonid,

I will try to follow you So when you use Huffyuv lossless AVI you got file bigger (5X) vs WinDV?

Can you give me the amount of space for 1 hour of video, just to give me a idea.

If I want to capture my VHS-PAL the best way (by the way I have some good quality tape (all original TAPE recorded in SP mode and played very few time), I have to buy a PAL card capturing device like this one for example

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-ALL-IN-W...item2eb9532d34

I read on this forum that ATI all-in-wonder were appreciated. You can see a significative difference at the end product (DVD ripped)...

Thanks for your patience


Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
I don't know anything about estase DV, but AFAIK WinDV captures in DV format which is 5:1 compression and 4:1:1 color space.

Basically I have 2 capture devices: the Philips SAA713xxx based TV Tuner card and Canopus ADVC-300.

I use the 1st one to capture in Huffyuv lossless AVI. I use it mainly to capture from the high quality VHS cassettes that are of high importance to me. The process of capturing and syncing audio/video takes a long time. Fortunately I don't have many of those to deal with.

I use the 2nd one (Canopus) to capture in DV (because it doesn't give any other option) with WinDV. I use it mainly with not so great quality VHS cassettes and that are not high importance to me. I use 3d noise reduction during capturing. The capture quality doesn't look worse than the original. The 4:1:1 color space doesn't make worse what wasn't great and sharp to begin with. And plus, the end result motion has far less noise than the original VHS which is satisfactory to me. This process is very quick.

What I do is not necessarily what you might want to do but perhaps you might want to consider those as options. But one thing. If you want to archive, do not deinterlace.
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  #13  
12-22-2011, 06:18 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Hi again,

ACDV-300
Okay if I resume I should try stong 3d noise, but no weak or no 2d noise reduction.

JVC S-VHS deck
use Edit mode (avoid auto; soft; sharp mode)
Fixed autogain filter (instead of auto)
Reduce Y a little.

Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
That's ok. It has preview function. Play with settings a bit. Try Strong 3d noise reduction, but either weak or NO 2d noise reduction. Play with 3d noise reduction. Now remember, that the end result is going to be compressed. Thus post processing is not recommended unless your final destination is uncompressed AVI which is still going to be limited to DV compression. That's why I recommend all the cleaning filters be done during capture process. If you have JVC S-VHS deck, make sure it's in Edit mode. Don't put it in auto or soft or sharp modes. You want noise reduction and damage to the original footage to be done not more than once.
In Autogain filter (2nd video tab), try to select fixed rather than auto and reduce Y a bit to make sure you don't have White Peak spread all over your picture when it has bright moments.

And by the way. If you use ADVC-300, use WinDV. Don't use anything else.

And by the way, I personally think ADVC is a good device. Maybe overpriced, but it's good at what it does. And I haven't had any dropped frames with it. If it had an option to capture uncompressed or with lossless compression with 4:2:2 colorspace, then it would probably be the near to perfect device.
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  #14  
12-22-2011, 09:44 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
Hi metaleonid,

I will try to follow you So when you use Huffyuv lossless AVI you got file bigger (5X) vs WinDV?

Can you give me the amount of space for 1 hour of video, just to give me a idea.

If I want to capture my VHS-PAL the best way (by the way I have some good quality tape (all original TAPE recorded in SP mode and played very few time), I have to buy a PAL card capturing device like this one for example

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-ALL-IN-W...item2eb9532d34

I read on this forum that ATI all-in-wonder were appreciated. You can see a significative difference at the end product (DVD ripped)...

Thanks for your patience
Hi,

I'm not sure you can follow me using the same hardware I do. The LifeView FlyVideo 300FM which I use is long out of print. And I don't think the newer cards work with this http://auzol.narod.ru/index_e.html software which is the only software that allows to use native Philips reference drivers. Also it might be pain in the ass to install it. I'm not discouraging you, but just if you get it and it doesn't work, don't blame me.

I will give you precise figure of space.

The amount of space of 54 minute and 49 seconds of 720x576 PAL DV video with uncompressed LPCM 48kHz/16bit audio is 12,182,06Kb

The amount of space of 54 minute and 48 seconds of 704x576 PAL Huffyuv video with uncompressed LPCM 48kHz/16bit audio is 24,229,884Kb

Personally, I do not like ATI even though I haven't owned one. Why? It's already been discussed.
Here's the link: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/1...hilips-SAA7130

The guy compares 3 cards: Brooktree AverTV, ATI and Philips based AverMedia DVD EZMaker. Well AverTV is not an option. It sucks. ATI doesn't produce as much details as AverMedia. So then even if it can capture uncompressed/losslessly compressed, what's the point of of capturing if it can't produce as much details as Philips based card.

Also download bitmap files post #3 which also shows that Philips based card gave superior image.

However, maybe the guy had different sharpness settings. I don't know.

Now look at this thread here: Philips SAA7314 chip, good capture card for the DVD look

I made comparisons between ADVC and FlyVideo. Note that FlyVideo Y/C NTSC separation simply suck. But if you compare S-Video, you will see that both cards are pretty close to each other.

So do some more research. In fact, I am still after yet another capture device. I need to capture from the LaserDiscs and for that I need good Y/C separation for NTSC. As I just mentioned my tuner card is horrible at it.
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12-22-2011, 09:48 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
Hi again,

ACDV-300
Okay if I resume I should try stong 3d noise, but no weak or no 2d noise reduction.

JVC S-VHS deck
use Edit mode (avoid auto; soft; sharp mode)
Fixed autogain filter (instead of auto)
Reduce Y a little.

Thanks
If you resume, you should try and see strong 3d noise. See if you're happy with it.
As for 2d. Set it either to Weak or to OFF. Do not use any values beyond weak. It will simply blur the image.

JVC - yes, edit mode. Don't forget S-Video out. Don't use composite.

As for Canopus Video 2 tab that depends on your image. If you have a lot of white color, try to set it to FIX and reduce Y. If you start seeing colors other than white, keep reducing Y. It's very tricky thing. You have to use preview option (output to TV) and judge by your eyes.
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12-22-2011, 09:54 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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And by the way, any tuner card might give you audio/video sync problem. No matter what experts say, the drift might occur due to the fact that audio card is a separate entity from the video capture card. Canopus seems to be good at it although I haven't checked thoroughly. But there's technique to fix sync problem.

And since I just finished capturing one PAL VHS tape, I thought I would share the images. This was not simultaneous capture. I screwed up settings on Philips, so I had to recapture for just tuner card.

Anyway, Philips Huffyuv compressed. Reduced white peak gain. No noise reduction. Used S-Video.

Canopus - 2d filter Weak, 3d filter strong. Reduced Y. The rest unchecked. Used composite.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sodom - Mortal Way Of Live 704x576 Huffyuv.jpg (57.8 KB, 36 downloads)
File Type: jpg Sodom - Mortal Way Of Live 720x576 DV.jpg (52.6 KB, 32 downloads)

Last edited by metaleonid; 12-22-2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason: correction
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  #17  
12-23-2011, 10:09 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
And by the way, any tuner card might give you audio/video sync problem. No matter what experts say, the drift might occur due to the fact that audio card is a separate entity from the video capture card. Canopus seems to be good at it although I haven't checked thoroughly. But there's technique to fix sync problem.

And since I just finished capturing one PAL VHS tape, I thought I would share the images. This was not simultaneous capture. I screwed up settings on Philips, so I had to recapture for just tuner card.

Anyway, Philips Huffyuv compressed. Reduced white peak gain. No noise reduction. Used S-Video.

Canopus - 2d filter Weak, 3d filter strong. Reduced Y. The rest unchecked. Used composite.
Hi again,

Your pictures talk by itself. Also, as you wisely said, each case is unique, but you knowledge is very valuable for me. In my case I will work with pretty much the same kind of scene. I got a contract to archive PAL-VHS tape of bulgarian philosopher Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov. So if you look on youtube it's always same kind of scene, white clothes caracter with sometime white background or blue background. So I think it's a good new because I will work with very static scene.

Even if they already invested in the ACDV-300, I will do some search for a PAL capturing card that can match Huffyuv, showing them differences between your pictures may convice them to invest in a "philips like" card.
I don't know if it's a stupid question but can I look for good NTSC/PAL card or I'm better to look for card that do just PAL or just NTSC?

I don't know if I read that on this thread or forum (I read so much now that I don't remember where I read it), may look "off-topic", apparently buying I s-VHS jvc deck without remote is a very bad investment? I assume it's because the board deck by itself is not sufficient to take advantage of all features?

In any case merry christmas to all of you!

Peace
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  #18  
12-23-2011, 11:07 PM
Mejnour Mejnour is offline
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Leonid,
Funny and encouraging for me to read what you said about Lordsmurf "But still it is great to hear expert's input."
Yeah there is expert and expert...Einstein call it relativity...lol

I think Lorssmurf is the a kind of "papa smurf"

Capture card alternatives to the Philips SAA7134 chipset cards ?
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12-24-2011, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
And by the way, any tuner card might give you audio/video sync problem. No matter what experts say, the drift might occur due to the fact that audio card is a separate entity from the video capture card. Canopus seems to be good at it although I haven't checked thoroughly. But there's technique to fix sync problem.
This can be solved by using a DirectShow capture device with built in audio capture. I have done 3+ hour long captures with zero audio sync problems with them. Nobody ever said Brooktree BT8x8 cards were decent. They were popular because they were cheap, widely available, and had a highly tweakable driver available. The composite input on it was total junk, it used a cheapo notch comb filter!

Composite comb filtering even on modern capture cards is an afterthought. Most of them have 2D line comb filters at best. At least one can rely on an external device to do the job properly if needed. If one wants to see what modern capture cards can do, check out this much more recent comparison thread.

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...on-screenshots
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12-25-2011, 08:48 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mejnour View Post
Leonid,
Funny and encouraging for me to read what you said about Lordsmurf "But still it is great to hear expert's input."
Yeah there is expert and expert...Einstein call it relativity...lol
I think Lorssmurf is the a kind of "papa smurf"

Capture card alternatives to the Philips SAA7134 chipset cards ?
I've never made a claim that I am an expert. Especially when it comes to theory. I have had a lot of experience using various capture devices which some of the experts here haven't dealt with. But it's the same as being the actual expert. I'm still learning.
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