Is my thought process on video capturing correct?

[JensBV9]

Hello everyone,

New to the forum as of this week and I've been trying to read up on the ins and outs of video digitizing and primarily on transferring old VHS cassettes and Mini-DV cassettes.

I managed to get my Panasonic NV-J45 running and figured I'd pick your brains on a possible budget setup.

About a week or so ago I traded off a big lot of video games for some old (1980-2000) computer stuff. Among the lot was a DV Master pro bundle from Fast Electronics (~2000, see included image). As I have a Mini-DV camera from early 2000 and a lot of home video stuff from when the kids were small, I'd like to give it a go with this equipment (I've already digitized most of it through adapters to the iMac).

When looking through the DV Master bundle I realized it had a plethora of ports for inputs/outputs. Among them Y/C in/out for s-video capture.

So, my questions are:

Is the Fast Electronics DV Master capture card a decent card?
Will I get decent results capturing VHS via the Scart output of the NV-J45 through a scart/y/c adapter (also in the image)?

My gear:

* Dell Optiplex GX110 (P3-733, 256mb ram, 40GB EIDE hdd) running Windows NT 4.0 Workstation
* Panasonic NV-J45 VHS player
* Panasonic NV-GS17 Mini-DV camera
* Any and all possibly usable adapters, cables and what not

Would love to hear your thoughts on the project and if you think there is a cheapish way to get even better results. Down the line I'm looking to invest in some bigger/better equipment for a semi-professional setup for client work.

Thanks in advance,
Jens

[7jlong]

All I can offer is that almost thirty years ago I called Dell, Fast, and a few other companies and grilled them all: will the Fast Multimedia FPS-60 (different card, I realize) work in a brand new (whatever the current hot Dell was)? Yes sir of course sir, that will be a great setup. Bought it all, had it shipped to my door.

Nope.

The Fast card allowed you to select one of three hardware interrupts. The Dell used hardwired interrupts, and those three were already taken. So, too bad. They were never going to work together, I was told when I called to follow up. Awesome. I was so pissed off I returned it all and went Mac for the next 5 years (then I got over it).

Would I try to get a card that old running again? No, it sounds like a headache of getting the driver and OS to line up and be happy with each other - and maybe, but hopefully not, hardware conflicts. I'm also not sure there are repositories of Fast drivers hanging about. Would I use a PC that old for serious capture? No. You will want SATA, no question. You can rationalize that if you get a good clean dedicated 7200RPM IDE drive it should keep up, everything should be fine. And maybe that's true. Until you go to copy all your captures off to a faster machine for editing/encoding/etc. Then as you stare at the progress bar you'll deeply, deeply regret the slower old interface. The processor and RAM are also a bit underwhelming.

Sell the Fast on to a collector or glitch artist and put the money towards pulling together an AGP machine if you want to go old. A few of the ATI cards are still relatively inexpensive and common, and if you're a careful shopper you'll end up with one that doesn't require ultra-rare horsetail breakout cables.

[JensBV9]

Thanks 7jlong!

Exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to get! Sounds like a lot of headache to be had here. On the flipside I'm kind of used to it, having about 10 different retro machines from the late 80s up to year 2000 or so. I could probably make it work, but it should be enjoyable. Like you say, speed is what is going to kill most workflows from yesteryears.

If I don't have $3000 to spend, what are some key components for a successful workflow today? Where can I cut corners until I feel like spending bigger cash?

Thanks,
Jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

Sell the Fast on to a collector or glitch artist and put the money towards pulling together an AGP machine if you want to go old. A few of the ATI cards are still relatively inexpensive and common, and if you're a careful shopper you'll end up with one that doesn't require ultra-rare horsetail breakout cables.

You think there is any kind of money in it today?

[7jlong]

Our host, lordsmurf, has a few good older-but-not-ancient capture cards available in the marketplace. That's probably the fastest route to "getting going" as it were, for reasonable prices. He also has a few workflows that include decks and TBCs.

Fussing, tweaking and struggling is indeed fun, I do it too, but the nice thing about checking in places like here first is finding that someone's been down some of these routes, already backed up, and is now thoughtfully hanging their head out the window yelling at fellow motorists to stop before it's too late.

Don't bother finding a way to redo your MiniDVs if you haven't sorted that out already. Just finish them up the way you've been doing. Copying over a MiniDV tape using the FireWire output is meant to be a direct zero-and-one copy of the contents of the tape, no different than copying a file from one drive to another. There are scattered users who prefer how it looks captured via an analog device, but I am not convinced.

Is the Fast worth anything? Umm, no. Probably not, to be honest.

[JensBV9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

Is the Fast worth anything? Umm, no. Probably not, to be honest.

Thanks for the quick and honest reply. Fun fact, in the box came the original quotation/receipt for a complete DV-studio (cameras, computers, software, recorders, the lot). It.was.not.cheap. :-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

Our host, lordsmurf, has a few good older-but-not-ancient capture cards available in the marketplace. That's probably the fastest route to "getting going" as it were, for reasonable prices. He also has a few workflows that include decks and TBCs.

Will have a look. I'm located in Europe, though and shipping electronics overseas is a bit of a hassle, to be honest. :-)

[7jlong]

I would imagine he deals with overseas at least now and then, he always seems to have some PAL gear in his cupboard.

As for the cost of the Fast, I don't doubt it. The FPS-60 was meant to be the home prosumer version (I think), and that itself was a bit pricey. When I went Mac I coveted the TrueVision Targa 2000, but - $$$$.

[JensBV9]

I hear you. This sale was directed towards a theatre. Probably for recording shows on stage. They bought 3 cameras (at roughly $30,000 each) and editing gear for $40,000. :-)

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JensBV9

I managed to get my Panasonic NV-J45 running

Meh. There are easily better, but also many worse. I'd prefer to see you using a non-TBC S-VHS VCR at minimum.

Quote:

Is the Fast Electronics DV Master capture card a decent card?

No, and MJPEG.

Quote:

Will I get decent results capturing VHS via the Scart output of the NV-J45

Not without strong+crippled line TBC from ES10/15 type between VCR and capture card. Even then, just "decent", not best.

Quote:

a cheapish way to get even better results. Down the line I'm looking to invest in some bigger/better equipment for a semi-professional setup for client work.

I suggest not wasting time now, because you'll want to redo all of it later once you see the night-and-day difference you get from quality hardware.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

Would I try to get a card that old running again? No, it sounds like a headache

Yep. Worse usage, more limitations, lower quality, etc -- blah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JensBV9

If I don't have $3000 to spend, what are some key components for a successful workflow today? Where can I cut corners until I feel like spending bigger cash?

- Best non-TBC S-VHS VCR under $400
- ES10/15 type for compromised line TBC quality, non-TBC frame sync, under $200
- quality USB capture card, under $200

So max $800. Be careful trying to be cheap, these are all 15-30 year old items now. Stuff breaks, former owners were morons (soda spills, smoking, etc). eBay sellers are mostly crap to deal with, poor shipping, lying about item condition (mostly from not knowing anything).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

Our host, lordsmurf, has a few good older-but-not-ancient capture cards available in the marketplace. That's probably the fastest route to "getting going" as it were, for reasonable prices. He also has a few workflows that include decks and TBCs.

Yep.

Quote:

Fussing, tweaking and struggling is indeed fun, I do it too, but the nice thing about checking in places like here first is finding that someone's been down some of these routes, already backed up, and is now thoughtfully hanging their head out the window yelling at fellow motorists to stop before it's too late.

Yep. I still see people making the mistakes I made 20-25 years ago. I try to save them from that fate, from driving off the cliff at 70mph (115kmph)

Quote:

There are scattered users who prefer how it looks captured via an analog device, but I am not convinced.

This issue is that the digital transfer can miss footage, seconds here and there. But sometimes those matter, so you capture analog, or even both digital+analog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JensBV9

I'm located in Europe, though and shipping electronics overseas is a bit of a hassle, to be honest. :-)

I ship worldwide, have it down to a science (hassle free and fast).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7jlong

I would imagine he deals with overseas at least now and then, he always seems to have some PAL gear in his cupboard.

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JensBV9

I hear you. This sale was directed towards a theatre. Probably for recording shows on stage. They bought 3 cameras (at roughly $30,000 each) and editing gear for $40,000.

MSRP on this stuff in 90s was nuts. Mortgages cost less. Now your cell phone is comparable quality.

[JensBV9]

lordsmurf,

You had me at "Meh."

I'll keep the "Don't be cheap" mantra close.
Thanks for the detailed reply!

// Jens