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  #1  
07-05-2022, 04:06 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Hey folks,

I'm finally getting around to all of the hardware/software setup involved in capturing my VHS tapes and am now successfully capturing video in VirtualDub (essentially everything THIS guide recommends with the exception of using YUY2 over Huffyuv since my editing software (Sony Vegas 13) isn't playing friendly with Huffyuv).

So to my questions:
1) Ensuring the TBC is working - The TBC I'm using is a Big Voodoo TBC10 (a.k.a. BV10). It's pictured HERE. If I'm getting video out of it, can I safely assume it is doing its job? Or, do TBCs sometimes default to passthrough and have to be enabled somehow to perform their function? I'm pretty sure it's doing what it should do seeing as how the video is better-centered and slightly less dingy (looks a bit more vibrant), but before I embark on a very lengthy journey, I just wanted to ask the "dumb question".
2) De-interlacing - I noticed the capture guide didn't say anything about de-interlacing. Do folks typically capture interlaced, then deinterlace in editing software after the fact? I just want to do whatever produces the best result.
3) Visual Artifacts - Can you take a look at the attached image and tell me if the "jitter" in the vertical lines of this footage is normal? It looks like a de-interlacing issue, but maybe it's just the way this tape is. Just trying to determine what to expect or if there's any change I should make in my process.

Thank you!


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File Type: png LineJitter.png (542.4 KB, 11 downloads)

Last edited by FleshWound; 07-05-2022 at 04:44 PM.
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  #2  
07-05-2022, 09:52 PM
nicholasserra nicholasserra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshWound View Post
So to my questions:
1) If I'm getting video out of it, can I safely assume it is doing its job?
Consensus around here is gonna be no. Video coming out of it could be worse, etc etc. I usually check it out with a color bar generator to see how badly it's affecting the brightness, saturation, etc. Shouldn't be doing anything but fixing the stability issues. Maybe try with a known jittery tape to see if it's doing what it should be doing.

Smurf has long been talking about writing up a TBC guide (testing, repair, etc). Still waiting for that one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshWound View Post
2)Do folks typically capture interlaced, then deinterlace in editing software after the fact?
Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshWound View Post
3)Can you take a look at the attached image and tell me if the "jitter" in the vertical lines of this footage is normal?
Probably better to post a short clip, raw from that capture.
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  #3  
07-06-2022, 11:15 AM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Thanks for your response! It's probably worth mentioning that this is an "A-" kit that LordSmurf sold me, so at the very least it should be in good working order, but I recognize settings might need to be revisited once the items are powered on, so I'd love any advice you can offer. The VCR is a JVC SR-MV45U, by the way.

I'm afraid I don't have any known jittery tapes or any other additional equipment to test the hardware with, just this one "test tape" that I don't care about that I've been using to make sure the system works, and the rest are family videos that I'd only like to run through once.

I've attached a couple of 2-second clips. I don't know how to trim clips without re-rendering since avidemux failed to split the files I'm capturing. So, it's not the exact same 2 seconds, but there is enough of an overlap to compare them in editing software if you want to do a 1:1 comparison between the frames of each clip.

Appreciate any and all help!


Attached Files
File Type: avi Short clip without TBC (straight from VCR).avi (33.95 MB, 1 downloads)
File Type: avi Short clip with TBC.avi (35.28 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #4  
07-06-2022, 11:30 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshWound View Post
Hey folks,
I'm finally getting around to all of the hardware/software setup involved in capturing my VHS tapes and am now successfully capturing video in VirtualDub
Excellent.

Quote:
exception of using YUY2 over Huffyuv since my editing software (Sony Vegas 13) isn't playing friendly with Huffyuv).
Yuck. Uncompressed. The Vegas issue is simply 64-bit vs 32-bit install. There are threads here where I addresses this very thing, due to my own issues with MainConcept and Win7, back around 2016. Look for those. The keyword "MainConcept" and "Huffyuv" in this forum should lead you there.

Quote:
1) Ensuring the TBC is working - The TBC I'm using is a Big Voodoo TBC10 (a.k.a. BV10). It's pictured HERE. If I'm getting video out of it, can I safely assume it is doing its job?
It's working.

Quote:
Or, do TBCs sometimes default to passthrough and have to be enabled somehow to perform their function?
Quite a few do this!
But not this exact version of this model. (Note that some BV units do reset themselves, just not yours.)

Quote:
I'm pretty sure it's doing what it should do seeing as how the video is better-centered and slightly less dingy (looks a bit more vibrant),
Frame TBCs shouldn't really clean the video, but it can be a slight byproduct of the timing correction. It also has advanced features, like proc amp, which can give this experience. Read the manual when you get some time, if you want to delve on those features.

Quote:
but before I embark on a very lengthy journey, I just wanted to ask the "dumb question".
2) De-interlacing - I noticed the capture guide didn't say anything about de-interlacing. Do folks typically capture interlaced, then deinterlace in editing software after the fact? I just want to do whatever produces the best result.
Capture interlaced, QTGMC deinterlace later in Hybrid or Avisynth.

Quote:
3) Visual Artifacts - Can you take a look at the attached image and tell me if the "jitter" in the vertical lines of this footage is normal? It looks like a de-interlacing issue, but maybe it's just the way this tape is. Just trying to determine what to expect or if there's any change I should make in my process.
Thank you!
In this case, probably yes. It may be a dot crawl on the recording. That's how most graphics exist on VHS and broadcasts back then. It's not even the tape, or the decades-later capture setup. It can always get worse, and that's the fault of the tape, recording VCR, or the digital ingest workflow. But the initial source had that embedded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholasserra View Post
Consensus around here is gonna be no. Video coming out of it could be worse, etc etc. I usually check it out with a color bar generator to see how badly it's affecting the brightness, saturation, etc. Shouldn't be doing anything but fixing the stability issues. Maybe try with a known jittery tape to see if it's doing what it should be doing.
In general, correct. But I vetted this exact unit, as well as refurb'd it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FleshWound View Post
I'm afraid I don't have any known jittery tapes
Jitter is tech term, wiggly video, and that flaw is inherent to VHS, present on all tapes to a degree. The layman term "jitter" (up/down vibrating bouncing) is not technical jitter. I know, stupid term. I'm sure there's a reason (and probably knew it, but forgot, not really important beyond trivia).

Quote:
and the rest are family videos that I'd only like to run through once.
Wise.

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  #5  
07-06-2022, 12:36 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Hey Smurf, thanks for all of the info! Do you happen to have a PDF of the BV10 manual? Maybe we talked about it ages ago, but I only have the JVC manual.

Quote:
Yuck. Uncompressed. The Vegas issue is simply 64-bit vs 32-bit install. There are threads here where I addresses this very thing, due to my own issues with MainConcept and Win7, back around 2016. Look for those. The keyword "MainConcept" and "Huffyuv" in this forum should lead you there.
Not having luck with this so far. I've read through a number of threads and I don't know that it's giving me a definitive thing to try.

I see folks discussing using ffdshow as a possible solution HERE.

Just as an FYI of what I've done already, I've followed these instructions, which allowed me to successfully encode to Huffyuv in VirtualDub, but still can't edit in Vegas despite having the 64-bit version installed:

Quote:
From here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...en-huffy-video


Download the 32 and 64 bit Huffyuv 2.1.1 from https://www.videohelp.com/software/HuffYUV.
Once you have downloaded them, extract to a folder, e.g. C:\Utils. Next you will need to open a command prompt as Administrator. Then run the following commands.

for 32bit huffyuv:
rundll32 C:\Windows\SysWOW64\setupapi.dll,InstallHinfSectio n DefaultInstall 0 C:\Utils\huffyuv-2.1.1\huffyuv.inf

for 64bit huffyuv:
rundll32 C:\Windows\System32\setupapi.dll,InstallHinfSectio n DefaultInstall 0 C:\Utils\huffyuv64\huffyuv.inf
It's probably worth mentioning that I own Adobe Premiere CS6 as well, but I don't know that I need Vegas or Premiere, so maybe that's a rabbit trail that isn't necessary to go down.

Really, my only goal is to capture these tapes in the best quality possible, de-interlace it all, chop it into clips, save those, then transcode them for viewing by my family.

So, here's the rough workflow I'd like to do:
1) Capture in VirtualDub encoding in Huffyuv
2) QTGMC deinterlace later in Hybrid or Avisynth as you recommended
3) Chop into clips without having to re-render (Recommended apps to do this?)
4) Archive the clips on my backup drives so the originals are safe.
5) Make copies encoded to x264 using handbrake so my family can view them without having to have terabytes of storage.
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  #6  
07-06-2022, 01:11 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Since this is the goal, "my only goal is to capture these tapes in the best quality possible, de-interlace it all, chop it into clips, save those, then transcode them for viewing by my family" then do this:

step 1 - Capture, VirtualDub 1.9.x, Huffyuv
2 - Open in VirtualDub, chop clips, stream copy output (aka no encode)
3 - Open in Hybrid, choose Vapoursynth for deinterlace

Save masters as clipped up Huffyuv for later, just in case. Don't trash master files.
Save copies as clipped up deinterlaced H.264 also.

For different project, I'd suggest different. For this exact project, this exact software workflow. All freeware, too!

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  #7  
07-06-2022, 03:06 PM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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Big VooDoo BVTBC8/10 attached herein.

It should probably be added to the Manuals Index on this site.

BW

PS: Could this be the thread LS is referring to re: 32 bit vs 64 bit issues?

PPS: When searching this forum, ignore the "Advanced Forum Search" option. Use the Google Custom search. It's far more effective.


Attached Files
File Type: pdf Big_VooDoo_BVTBC8_10.pdf (1.21 MB, 7 downloads)

Last edited by BW37; 07-06-2022 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Added PS
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  #8  
07-07-2022, 12:00 AM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
3 - Open in Hybrid, choose Vapoursynth for deinterlace
WHEW! I'm coming up for air after going down quite a rabbit hole. First of all, a couple of details for anyone else who stumbles upon this thread to save anyone else some of the grief I went through to get things working:
1) If you're running Windows 7 x64 like me, the latest version will throw an error. According to the creator's download page, the latest version you can use with Win7 x64 is 2020.12.13.1
2) When I tried to encode to x264 with passthrough audio to an avi container, only the audio was output. I had to change to an MKV container to get any video output.

Do you have any recommended settings for the QTGMC (Vapoursynth) configuration? Seems like general consensus from some searches is that anything beyond "Slower" just isn't worth it. Also, do I do Even, Odd, or Bob? Any other settings like "Overwrite input scan type" or the percentage that is worth changing? If the answer to any of these questions is "it depends" then any guidance to help me make the necessary determinations is much appreciated. Quality is the priority. Screenshot attached for convenience.

Even as a data engineer by trade, I find the number of options with this software a bit overwhelming!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW37 View Post
Big VooDoo BVTBC8/10 attached herein.
Thank you very much! I believe the thread you linked is one of the ones I skimmed. I think I did most everything "right" with Huffyuv installation and Vegas is just... being Vegas. I've had similar compatibility issues with it in the past. There might be some way to get it working, (like the solution suggested in this discussion), but I'm abandoning Vegas in favor of the workflow LordSmurf suggested. As nice as the UI is, and as comfortable as I am with the software, I'd rather not fight it.


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File Type: jpg HybridDeinterlaceSettings.jpg (45.3 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #9  
07-07-2022, 06:55 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Slower = softer
Use Faster.
If you run into aliasing issues, sometimes Medium is needed, still not Slower.

Bob converts to 59.94fps (59.94p) from the 29.97fps (59.94i) source. This can cause problems with home camcorder source. The fields can vibrate, and anything with an on-screen date will look terrible. Be careful with this setting, regardless of advice you see online insisting that you should always/only extra the fields to frames. It's just not accurate. Interpolation is always involved, aka fake data is created from neighbor fields. There is no "true" source here, in terms of the interlace fields and the outputs frame count.

Odd/Even rarely makes a different, but all is 29.97fps output. In general, this is fine. You can auto-pilot this a bit more, not have to crawl all over the footage trying to find if artifacts were created from the deinterlace.

Always overwrite the input as TFF. Assume the software is stupid (and with AVI source, it usually always is). Too many programs default to BFF, which is DV. It should be reversed, DV never default.

Never encode H.264 in AVI wrapper, only MP4 or MKV. And MKV is better, it just will not stream on a webpage. But it does stream on LANs just fine.

"it depends" -- reminds me of Beavis & Butthead. Hands lady box of Depends. "Uh, here you go, you poop in them."

I have encodes tips. For starters, encode 422 (4:2:2), don't degrade colorspace to 420. That is set in two places. I replied to a post some time back, which gave the encode settings I suggested. Not defaults. I can screen can those again if needed, but not at that computer today.

Vegas is a great editor, but the wrong tool here, not needed.

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  #10  
07-07-2022, 11:08 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Thanks again. I definitely want to dig more into optimal Hybrid settings later on, but after giving it some thought I think I'm ready to begin capturing.

Regarding VirtualDub, I've confirmed all of the settings are correct using the capture guide and that it's capturing in 4:2:2 (Screenshot 1). I also did a 1-hour test with a test tape and the setup was rock solid with 0 frame drops (Screenshot 2). Looks like huffyuv files end up being about 30GB per hour of footage, so I suspect this project is going to suck up most of my media server's remaining space. In fact, I'm starting to question if I'll have enough space... I have like

Is there anything else I should double-check before I begin capturing tapes in earnest?

I also sat down and did some number-crunching and... it was sobering. I have 110 tapes... spread across a variety of types. Given the ~30GB/hour of footage I got with huffyuv, it's looking like I'd need 5.26TB in the best case and 14.47TB in the worst case, depending on recording speed (Screenshot 3). Do you have any thoughts regarding space efficiency? Dropping 1-2K on a redundant array would be a gut punch I don't need right now, so what I might do for this is just drop a few hundred on a 16TB drive and just save the masters on that with the intention of keeping it unplugged in long-term storage.


Attached Images
File Type: png Capture Settings.png (31.2 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg One Hour Capture.jpg (32.8 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: png Estimated Space.png (10.2 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #11  
07-08-2022, 10:07 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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We need to verify your timing settings, in capture settings. Screen cap that, attach.

These days, I also tend to disable DirectX in the main settings. It never helps (exception = AIW), but can screw stuff up. So at best, for most cards, neutral. So disable.

$300 for good 16tb CMR drive. That's cheap. (I still remember buying 180gb drives for $300, for my early capture systems,)

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  #12  
07-08-2022, 01:01 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
We need to verify your timing settings, in capture settings. Screen cap that, attach.

These days, I also tend to disable DirectX in the main settings. It never helps (exception = AIW), but can screw stuff up. So at best, for most cards, neutral. So disable.

$300 for good 16tb CMR drive. That's cheap. (I still remember buying 180gb drives for $300, for my early capture systems,)
Yeah, drive space is surprisingly cheap right now considering the skyrocketing inflation. I'm going to pick up an EXOS drive and throw it in one of the USB enclosures I shucked the rest of my drives out of.

I've disabled DirectX under Video > Preferences > Display. Is that the area you were referring to? The various capture settings are attached.


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File Type: jpg VirtualDub Settings.jpg (75.6 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #13  
07-08-2022, 02:05 PM
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In capture mode, there are timing settings. Need to know those.

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  #14  
07-08-2022, 03:24 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
In capture mode, there are timing settings. Need to know those.
Hopefully this is the right menu.


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File Type: png Timing Settings.png (22.0 KB, 8 downloads)
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  #15  
07-08-2022, 06:22 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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For this card...

Check- Automatically disable resync
Uncheck- Force audio clock

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  #16  
07-08-2022, 06:54 PM
FleshWound FleshWound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
For this card...

Check- Automatically disable resync
Uncheck- Force audio clock
Done! Thanks again. I'm going to do a little research and establish a workflow with Hybrid next. Is the "Encode, Convert for discs" the best place on the site for that discussion? I'd like to take first crack at optimal settings after searching through other threads, then get your input before making a final decision.
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