12-14-2024, 09:17 AM
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Hi All,
My “parts” (one JVC HR-S4800U) arrived yesterday. Very happy my Luck held up. Packaging was done with care, I put it through its paces and am very happy with this find.
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Someday, 12:01 PM
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12-14-2024, 10:28 AM
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Following up on post #21…
Purchased the 4800 for parts for two of my 7800’s.
VCR #1… I had serviced for a squeaky drum. A non- 7800 drum and stator was used for a replacement. I wanted to get this VCR back to stock. See attached.
Attached VCR #1 pictures,
20241210_041716
20241210_041721
20241210_042732
20241210_073901
VCR #3… Was suffering from “ghost loading/ejecting” (not sure if is the tech. description). I had it serviced, according to the tech. found the cassette basket had shifted and was rubbing on the circuit board (don’t know, I’m not a tech.). Repairs were made, all better now. See attached.
Attached VCR #3 pictures,
20241210_100509
20241210_100515
20241210_100521
20241210_101948
20241214_075105
Got to thinking…
If one has a Pana ES-xx in their workflow, why would you need/require a VCR w/an on-board TBC?
Within a week or so I will be listing, for sale, VCR #1 & #3 for $225.00 each, plus shipping on eBay. For my fellow travelers here and another forum I enjoy, the price is $175.00 each, plus shipping.
PM me if you have questions and are interested.
Thanks in advance,
Roy
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12-14-2024, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 916Area52
Hi All,
My “parts” (one JVC HR-S4800U) arrived yesterday. Very happy my Luck held up. Packaging was done with care, I put it through its paces and am very happy with this find.
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That packaging job is atrocious. Those exact U-Haul boxes are thin single corrugated, and always crush when used for shipping, as is the case here. Those are moving boxes, not shipping boxes. I've see this many times before. That's how decks get destroyed in the mail. When shipping VCRs, don't copy what that person did.
That bubble wrap isn't secured (taped) to anything. A VCR can slide right out of it, and then it's like not having any bubbles at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 916Area52
If one has a Pana ES-xx in their workflow, why would you need/require a VCR w/an on-board TBC?
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If one has a bicycle, why do they need a car?
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12-14-2024, 02:52 PM
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Thanks for repairing those units, we need more people like you, aramkolt and others to keep a supply of working machines in the hobby, we are getting old, we need young people to carry on in this path.
https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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The following users thank latreche34 for this useful post:
lordsmurf (12-15-2024)
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12-15-2024, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34
Thanks for repairing those units, we need more people like you, aramkolt and others to keep a supply of working machines in the hobby, we are getting old, we need young people to carry on in this path.
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Thank you :-)
Relatively new to this hobby and it has been a interesting journey, always something new to learn.
@ lordsmurf…
You confuse me… I’ll admit it doesn’t take much these days.
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...s-vcr-tbc.html
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12-15-2024, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 916Area52
@ lordsmurf…
You confuse me… I’ll admit it doesn’t take much these days.
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JVC VCR TBCs are fairly transparent, doing the job as intended, and not much else. The output is almost always better.
Panasonic ES DVD recorders are not at all transparent, and add issues. Video quality suffers, audio quality can have issues, and even usability can be a big PITA. Those Panasonic recorders are simply "better than nothing", not better than JVC/Panasonic with-TBC VCRs.
The DVD recorder "works" in the same way as a typical commuter would find a bicycle to "work" instead of a car. It's a fairly miserable experience ... but hey, "it works!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 916Area52
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That link lays it out pretty well, and lists the reason to NOT use a DVD recorder in place of actual TBCs.
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12-15-2024, 07:33 AM
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If one has a Pana ES-xx in their workflow, why would you need/require a VCR w/an on-board TBC?
Not wasting any more energy with this.
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12-15-2024, 07:42 AM
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This can get pedantic fast.
Why do you need/require to convert VHS, for that matter? Just play the tapes in a ratty old thrift store VCR, because that work too.
There's a difference between
- doing something right
- doing something wrong
- doing something "in the middle" (not right, not wrong), or halfway, aka half-assed ... (see also "bang for the buck" methods)
- not doing something
So
- JVC/Panasonic VCR with TBC = right
- no TBC = wrong
- DVD recorders = half-assed
- thrift store VCR to watch, forget converting = not at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by 916Area52
If one has a Pana ES-xx in their workflow, why would you need/require a VCR w/an on-board TBC?
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Reading this again .... are you asking the question backwards?
As in you acquired the ES10/15 recorder first ... and later want to add a better VCR?
The ideal answer is to simply NOT use that DVD recorder anymore. It was not intended to act as an external TBC (line, not frame), and in fact doesn't do great at. Get the better VCR, use it. Set the ES10/15 aside for tearing-type needs.
I never understand when people feel the need to use something just because they bought/acquired it. In this case, it's either part of the replacement (displaced by the a VCR), or it was just a mistaken purchase. That happens, move on.
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12-15-2024, 08:18 AM
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Pacino's line from The Godfather Part 3 "Just When I Thought I Was Out They Pull Me Back In"
With my current setup, my milage/experience with the 7800 on board TBC has been less than impressive.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...pped-frames%29 Post #21
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12-15-2024, 10:48 AM
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I haven't done much testing with the 7xxx series - though I think I have a 7500 and 7600 kicking around here somewhere.
The one thing I noticed with my very limited testing is that on least one of them that image would get vertically jumpy with some commercially recorded tapes (and presumably would also do so with home tapes). I hadn't really seen the output be worse when enabling the TBC on other line-TBC containing JVCs. Could be my specific unit or that tape just has an issue though (It didn't do it with all tapes, just tried like 3 test tapes). Could also be that those need a recap of their TBC card - I believe the TBC on those is in a daughter board that is soldered down to the main board and fully enclosed in metal shielding, so not super easy to get at without fully disassembling the machine. Even then, I'm not sure if there's many electrolytic caps in there that could go bad, but they'd be at higher risk if that card gets warm since they are fully enclosed with metal shielding. JVC would have probably gotten a lot of flack if their new TBC models back in 1997 or whenever this was made commercial tape playback jittery, though may not have been an issue for CRTs which are better at handling those sorts of timing problems.
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12-15-2024, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
How embarrassing for them.
1999 called, they want their site back. 
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 I see his order forms have a Brockton address where as some other page has the Easton plaza address, which is now vacated. Been there.
For kicks I Google-Earthed the Brockton location. A rundown house seeming a bit, er, dicey by appearance.
But then rotate the view and there's a mini-mansion across the street.
I'm sure I've been by the place a couple hundred times, surely I'll get a chance to do a look see, but it might be after Christmas. I don't know why this has become a quest, it's not a big deal, but if I'm in that area then a drive-by is certain. Maybe I'll tie a note to a brick as I barrel past the house at a high rate of speed.
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12-15-2024, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt
I haven't done much testing with the 7xxx series - though I think I have a 7500 and 7600 kicking around here somewhere.
The one thing I noticed with my very limited testing is that on least one of them that image would get vertically jumpy with some commercially recorded tapes (and presumably would also do so with home tapes). I hadn't really seen the output be worse when enabling the TBC on other line-TBC containing JVCs. Could be my specific unit or that tape just has an issue though (It didn't do it with all tapes, just tried like 3 test tapes). Could also be that those need a recap of their TBC card - I believe the TBC on those is in a daughter board that is soldered down to the main board and fully enclosed in metal shielding, so not super easy to get at without fully disassembling the machine. Even then, I'm not sure if there's many electrolytic caps in there that could go bad, but they'd be at higher risk if that card gets warm since they are fully enclosed with metal shielding. JVC would have probably gotten a lot of flack if their new TBC models back in 1997 or whenever this was made commercial tape playback jittery, though may not have been an issue for CRTs which are better at handling those sorts of timing problems.
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Valid observations too be sure.
My evaluation was done with the four 7800s I have, with the same Pana. All of the 7800s returned the same or very similar statistics.
Just happen to know a fellow traveler with a “new in the box 7800”. Perhaps he can donate it for further testing. Just kidding, lol.
Can only speak for myself. Moving forward, I stand by my evaluations and will continue to do captures accordantly. For the time being, I am quite satisfied with the captures with the Pana included in the workflow. Perhaps in the near/far future, I’ll pull the trigger on a line TBC and add it to the workflow.
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12-15-2024, 11:24 PM
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A good capture indeed! I'd say if you aren't using the line TBC because an ES10 or 15 is being used for passthrough, there's no reason to go with the 7800 over probably any of the other HR-S series, though the 3800/4800 are probably the closest hardware-wise to the 7800 otherwise. It does help that it's a relatively bright scene, where capture cards seem to struggle is mostly dark scenes because there's a lot less dynamic range to work with and a lot of the colors get rounded to mostly the same narrow range limited values and even more the case if you're working with lower bit depth. There should at least be a theoretical advantage to capturing in 10 bit in low contrast scenes as long as you aren't passing it through a device that truncates the bit depth to less than 10 bits - so like the TBC-1000 for example is 8 bit. There'd be no point in capturing in 10 bit if that is in your chain. I don't know what bit depth the ES10/15 are, but I'm guessing it's effectively less than the built in line TBCs in most VCRs that have it, hence you get what looks like posterization or analog to digital and back to analog artifacts/loss of grain/noise reduction effects which lose some of the detail along with it.
The posterization that is described coming from ES10/15 to me just says it likely uses a relatively low bit depth DAC or ADC which makes similar values all end up rounding to the same value - like in your sample clip there, the sky is quite uniformly blue and there really isn't the typical "grain" of analog video still there - not that it's a bad thing necessarily - it probably looks more like how a CRT would display it. It also could have something to do with the losses to MP4 encoding where that can happen again. It's a form of noise reduction essentially, but also a type of detail loss which may or may not have the look you're going for.
While not exactly the same comparison, these are a couple of tests I did with two different capture devices coming off of the same HR-S9800U with the line TBC on. One is a DV encode by the ADVC-110 via S-Video which I would argue basically causes posterization as well due to the DV codec, and the other is an SDI capture to ProRes422HQ which is supposed to be "visually lossless." The darker image for the DV capture could be because I had the IRE switch set to 7.5IRE for black, which is what NTSC is supposed to be, but it does mean if some things are slightly below 7.5, they'll be set to black anyway which would appear as crushed blacks.
Here's the video on YouTube right at where that frame is from if you're curious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FqwURo4j6U&t=26s
ADVC-110.jpg
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I'm guessing "Ringing" and "oversharpening" may come to mind, but the source is a commercially produced VHS tape of a music video from 1985, so the source was undoubtedly originally shot in U-matic and probably has gone a few generations before making it to the VHS tape. U-Matic is pretty well-known for ringing. I actually bought a bunch of random Umatic music videos to see how they transfer compared to what's currently on say YouTube as the "official" videos for some of these older songs. I think I can do better especially with a what I assume is a 3rd or 4th generation U-Matic tape as opposed to a VHS that is made from a 3rd or 4th generation U-Matic tape haha.
Short clips containing this frame also attached. Dark scenes are kind of struggles for captures because this is a dark scene with low dynamic range as mentioned above.
Last edited by aramkolt; 12-15-2024 at 11:49 PM.
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12-16-2024, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt
A good capture indeed! I'd say if you aren't using the line TBC because an ES10 or 15 is being used for passthrough, there's no reason to go with the 7800 over probably any of the other HR-S series, though the 3800/4800 are probably the closest hardware-wise to the 7800 otherwise. It does help that it's a relatively bright scene, where capture cards seem to struggle is mostly dark scenes because there's a lot less dynamic range to work with and a lot of the colors get rounded to mostly the same narrow range limited values and even more the case if you're working with lower bit depth. There should at least be a theoretical advantage to capturing in 10 bit in low contrast scenes as long as you aren't passing it through a device that truncates the bit depth to less than 10 bits - so like the TBC-1000 for example is 8 bit. There'd be no point in capturing in 10 bit if that is in your chain. I don't know what bit depth the ES10/15 are, but I'm guessing it's effectively less than the built in line TBCs in most VCRs that have it, hence you get what looks like posterization or analog to digital and back to analog artifacts/loss of grain/noise reduction effects which lose some of the detail along with it.
The posterization that is described coming from ES10/15 to me just says it likely uses a relatively low bit depth DAC or ADC which makes similar values all end up rounding to the same value - like in your sample clip there, the sky is quite uniformly blue and there really isn't the typical "grain" of analog video still there - not that it's a bad thing necessarily - it probably looks more like how a CRT would display it. It also could have something to do with the losses to MP4 encoding where that can happen again. It's a form of noise reduction essentially, but also a type of detail loss which may or may not have the look you're going for.
While not exactly the same comparison, these are a couple of tests I did with two different capture devices coming off of the same HR-S9800U with the line TBC on. One is a DV encode by the ADVC-110 via S-Video which I would argue basically causes posterization as well due to the DV codec, and the other is an SDI capture to ProRes422HQ which is supposed to be "visually lossless." The darker image for the DV capture could be because I had the IRE switch set to 7.5IRE for black, which is what NTSC is supposed to be, but it does mean if some things are slightly below 7.5, they'll be set to black anyway which would appear as crushed blacks.
Here's the video on YouTube right at where that frame is from if you're curious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FqwURo4j6U&t=26s
Attachment 18644
Attachment 18645
I'm guessing "Ringing" and "oversharpening" may come to mind, but the source is a commercially produced VHS tape of a music video from 1985, so the source was undoubtedly originally shot in U-matic and probably has gone a few generations before making it to the VHS tape. U-Matic is pretty well-known for ringing. I actually bought a bunch of random Umatic music videos to see how they transfer compared to what's currently on say YouTube as the "official" videos for some of these older songs. I think I can do better especially with a what I assume is a 3rd or 4th generation U-Matic tape as opposed to a VHS that is made from a 3rd or 4th generation U-Matic tape haha.
Short clips containing this frame also attached. Dark scenes are kind of struggles for captures because this is a dark scene with low dynamic range as mentioned above.
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Thank you
Those are interesting capture comparisons, and valuable feedback. I dabbled for just a minute with DV (ADS PyroA/V link). Probably another rookie move on my behalf using the Pyro. Admittedly, I didn’t do any further exploring into DV beyond that. I will say, that I’m the last fellow traveler that should be asked for a proper critiquing for any capture. I directly give thanks and credit to what little I do know about critiquing captures to the link I pointed to in post #29 above. As well as to all the fellow travelers that took the time to contribute and participate in it. I will never look at captures the same way, ever again, .
I’ve attached a darker scene/snip of the same capture. That is, if you could give a critique?
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by 916Area52; 12-16-2024 at 06:34 AM.
Reason: Incomplete
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12-16-2024, 07:22 AM
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I'm definitely no expert on critiquing, I've just watched enough captures to think to myself whether I'd be happy with the result and if the content is watchable in that there aren't distracting artifacts. if a certain artifact is distracting enough, it detracts from the rest if you're picky about such things. For the file size that is compressed down to, it is still quite watchable I'd say, but I think you can agree that in dark scenes that a lot of the pixels get "rounded" to black or very near black. Still is probably a better look than mostly lighter than black though. I'm one of those people that gets distracted by head switching noise at the bottom of captures - if that says anything haha.
DV I think gets a bad rap, but the look is probably closer to how most of us remember VHS, a bit softer, but if viewed on an average CRT, I doubt you'd notice the artifacts/posterization/softness that can come with it. Softness can also be preferable in some cases, but the idea is you can always go from sharper to softer with video filters, but going the other way is usually more problematic, so probably better to have more detail to begin with if you're looking for a sharper result.
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12-16-2024, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramkolt
I'm definitely no expert on critiquing, I've just watched enough captures to think to myself whether I'd be happy with the result and if the content is watchable in that there aren't distracting artifacts. if a certain artifact is distracting enough, it detracts from the rest if you're picky about such things. For the file size that is compressed down to, it is still quite watchable I'd say, but I think you can agree that in dark scenes that a lot of the pixels get "rounded" to black or very near black. Still is probably a better look than mostly lighter than black though. I'm one of those people that gets distracted by head switching noise at the bottom of captures - if that says anything haha.
DV I think gets a bad rap, but the look is probably closer to how most of us remember VHS, a bit softer, but if viewed on an average CRT, I doubt you'd notice the artifacts/posterization/softness that can come with it. Softness can also be preferable in some cases, but the idea is you can always go from sharper to softer with video filters, but going the other way is usually more problematic, so probably better to have more detail to begin with if you're looking for a sharper result.
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Thanks again for the critique. It gives me something more to consider in post editing. Normally I'd cut a little off the sides and bottom to address distracting artifacts, "head switching noise" being one. Just wanted it to be clear, and no question as to what this capture was.
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12-16-2024, 08:43 PM
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FYI this may explain smc not responding
https://smcelectronics.com/SMCEMAIL.HTM
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12-17-2024, 06:53 AM
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Perhaps others here have had problems/issues w/smcelectronics.com. And should be helpful to check out the FYI that Dougmc has provided above.
Personally, my experience with https://smcelectronics.com/vcrrep.htm, when I ordered belts, was un-eventful. Meaning, the communication and the order of, and the receiving of, my purchase was carried out with zero drama.
-- merged --
Just an FYI...
The 7800s that were offered up for sale in post #22 are no longer available.
Thank you
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