Panasonic NV-SV120 SVHS to UltraStudio HD Mini, best cables?

[sunjan]

Hi!

I'm helping a friend setting up his VHS digitizing rig for the first time.

He currently has:
Panasonic NV-SV120
Blackmagic UltraStudio HD Mini

We're a bit confused with the signal types and connectors.

The SVHS has scart + s-video + composite/audio out (RCA).
Blackmagic has Analog Video Inputs Y, B-Y, R-Y (3xBNC) and also specifies NTSC/PAL on one of the three BNC connectors. It also has separate analog audio in (RCA).

What would be the best way to hook them up?
Connect yellow composite with an RCA>BNC cable? And separate RCA>RCA for audio.
Going scart out or S-video out instead wouldn't make any difference, right?


Second question:
Let's say we have $100 /$300 / $500 to spend.
If we wanted to improve this rig and get a cleaner signal, what would be the best investment (depending on budget of course)?
Better VHS player? With TBC?
DVD-recorder with TBC passthrough?
Dedicated TBC unit?

[hodgey]

It doesn't look like the blackmagic supports S-Video. You could use the composite in, though blackmagic devices have a reputation for not handling direct video signals from vhs and other tapes particularly well. You also lose the advantage of the S-Video output on the VCR. Using composite will result in crosstalk artifacts (dots, color flashing around edges), how much depends on the filters in the device used.

For the $100 option I would think a DVD-recorder with TBC functions would give the best value for money. You may be ableuse the component outputs if the DVR supports 480i/576i output on that. Some models only output deinterlaced video though on the component out which isn't ideal to capture, particularly NTSC models. It seems the oft used NTSC DMR-ES10 can output 480i over component though according to the manual.

Some users here have a workflow with a TBC with SDI output as well which the blackmagic supports. Component out is less common on TBCs.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Blackmagic UltraStudio HD Mini

The Blackmagic card is a non-starter. Wrong tool for this task. It's a costly capture card, that results in problems and lower quality -- it's double punishment.

Quote:

Better VHS player? With TBC?

Yes and no.

Not VHS -- you want S-VHS. And specific decks, not just any random deck.
See: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ing-guide.html

If you go the ES10/15 route, internal line TBC must be disabled. The reason for the VCR is then transport quality, processing quality, etc. Some non-TBC JVCs can work, fewer non-TBC Panasonics.

But the most ideal quality will always be had from:
JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC > Cypress/DataVideo type framesync TBC > ATI/Pinnacle capture

Quote:

DVD-recorder with TBC passthrough?

A DVD recorder is not a TBC, nor does it contain a true TBC. Almost all DVD recorders have basic frame syncs, and do nothing for you. Some claim TBC, but you must understand that TBC is a wide term, and can mean almost anything. So many "TBCs" do nothing.

The lone exception is the ES10 and ES15 unit, from Panasonic (and the +HDD versions in PAL). That has a crippled line TBC, with a frame sycn. It's very minimalist, and has a fail rate. To fortify the ES10/15, you want the DataVideo DVK (weak frame TBC). That combo can give 99% performance of a real TBC, though still with drawbacks of the ES10/15 (small quality hits, posterization, aggressive NR that's always on even when "off", etc).

But it a budget option when funds matter more than quality.

Quote:

Dedicated TBC unit?

The TBCs you'll want are $1k+, not the cheaper flawed stuff you see on eBay. The irony here is that eBay is sometimes the same cost, or more expensive, for inferior gear. Too many people are relying on eBay lately, as the bad stories of eBay gear have multiplied.

Right now I have some in the marketplace, and will be adding a few more this weekend.

Quote:

SDI output

I really don't understand why this has been mentioned so much lately. SDI really hasn't been desired since the 90s. The problem is that it creates a closed-loop system. When you had pro sources, that was fine. But consumer sources like VHS do not work well with integrated/closed-loop setups. You must have the ability to isolate deck and TBC and capture from one another.

In the 2000s, pros were mostly glad to be rid of SDI systems. Hobbyists/amateurs never wanted anything to do with them (and probably still should not). I think it's because of costs (seeing as how nobody wants them anymore, condition of units is often rough), combined with some limited successes by some vocal buyers. I'm glad it works for those people, but the odds of it being recreated well is unlikely. Keep this in mind about SDI solutions, combined with VHS/S-VHS and Video8/Hi8.

[sunjan]

Thanks a lot hodgey and Lordsmurf for your insight!
I've spent many hours reading here ond the forum since last week.

My friend now told me that he will arrange for a professional studio to do the transfers later, since they are meant for a short film/movie documentary.

Right now, he just needed basic transfers for intermediate viewing by his film team members. Quality is not paramount, since these first transfers are just to evaluate which material goes on to the studio transfer.

Since he happened to have the Blackmagic UltraStudio HD Mini at home anyway, he thought it could be useful, but might have to rethink that.

We will most likely make changes to the gear chain.

My part of the puzzle is that I happened to have a P4 3.00GHz ASUS Win XP machine, that I could throw an AGP AIW card, a Santa Cruz and eSATA controllers in, but since my friend is technically challenged when it comes to older gear, it'll be a huge amount of trial and error until the additions are installed and up and running.

I will most likely post more questions later!

[latreche34]

You would need a cable like in the picture, It's called Y/C to S-Video adapter or cable.

[sunjan]

Thanks a lot latreche34!
Given lordsmurf's advice, we're looking for a TBC to put between the SVHS and the Blackmagic - as a temporary solution until I get the parts for my XP machine. We mich pick up this cable just to see how well (poorly?!) the Blackmagic can handle analog input. More like a way to dispel this signal path before we move on to a pure s-video chain.

[lordsmurf]

Why do you think it's temporary? TBC is always needed.

Workflow = VCR > TBC > capture card
Ideal = JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC > Cypress/DataVideo frame TBC > quality SD capture card (like ATI AIW)

[sunjan]

Sorry, mean to say that TBC>Blackmagic is a temporary solution until we have sorted out TBC>Windows XP with AIW.

They guys are scrambling to gather sources at this stage, and will pitch a documentary for national Swedish Television. If they sign that deal, they will ultimately get access to the TV studio + engineer and do broadcast quality transfers there.
But before that, they are trying to figure out what budget, skills and gear they have to assemble a signal chain as close to the ideal one described by lordsmurf.

[lordsmurf]

I watch a lot of documentaries. I see good, bad, and mediocre conversion work.

Just this past week, I saw one that had distracting timing issues (wiggling video, tearing), due to not using line TBC. And a few places were jerky, audio seemed unaligned, meaning no frame TBC was used. There were also several places where mild Avisynth could have made it look professional, instead of looking like something some amateur stuck on Youtube.

Be better. The tools needed can be found (I make sure of that). Learning the tools can be done.

I've also captured footage for many documentaries, where the filmmakers didn't want to spend time on the ingest, and were instead wanting to spend their time on creating the actual documentary.