TBC still required for RF capture? (VHS-decode)

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

Out of interest, what is your professional role in video?

- streaming
- restoration
- analog source ingest

Those last two require a special attention to hardware, such as TBCs.

The streaming was in the 2000s, back when it was far more challenging to balance size and quality. This wasn't something I overly enjoyed, as it was an extension of hobby (analog source ingest, restoration).

There's lots more to it, but I just don't have the time to write that novel post.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

- streaming
- restoration
- analog source ingest

Those last two require a special attention to hardware, such as TBCs.

The streaming was in the 2000s, back when it was far more challenging to balance size and quality. This wasn't something I overly enjoyed, as it was an extension of hobby (analog source ingest, restoration).

There's lots more to it, but I just don't have the time to write that novel post.

Which formats?

[Shakedown St.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

I can't get behind this, not in the technical argument anyway.

S-VHS players have the benefit of playing S-VHS tapes properly. There's nothing inherently magic about an S-VHS machine for playing back standard VHS tapes. S-VHS machines use the conventional S-Video connector which is very useful for capturing, but the machines don't really do much extra for 'vanilla' VHS.

Broadly, S-VHS machines are later in VHS' lifecycle and were, by virtue of being built for a more demanding market, better quality machines than many standard players, but they're no panacea.

Many S-VHS machines can restore (to a degree line-timing), they often restore sync-tips, colour bursts and neaten the non-visual portion of the line which is a worthy task, but they're often not the best at it. These machines are all ageing though, they command high values and many of them are (personal opinion) not worth the prices some try and command for them, I'm fortunate that I can purchase 2nd/3rd rate machines and repair them, but this isn't feasible for many.

vhs-decode is proven in principle, I don't think that's up for debate anymore - there are arguments for and against when it comes to the technicalities and overall result, but it is improving, whereas some of the knackered old TBCs that are commanding such huge values are ageing like fine-milk bluntly and most are getting to the stage where components need replacing; where shall we be in five years? The same with many cards and capture devices, how long do we pretend these items aren't ageing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

<sigh> It's only "magic" when people don't understand what's going on. As mentioned, a primary reason is non compositing the output. Another is that the decks are simply made better, which lends itself to things like less timing errors. It's very much a situation of "you get what you pay for", with the cheaper/worse option having more problems, less quality. Often many more problems, substantially less quality -- not a nuanced amount.

I have been away recovering from surgery over the past month and have not been able to reply to messages. I'm back.

First off, this is why I bought an SVHS deck, and was willing to pay for it. I prefer an external workflow as much as possible. The reason I like proc controls as well. The less I have to fiddle around in software the better. I don't need an incredibly fast computer. I can even capture to an external recorder like an Atomos Ninja.

I use SVHS not just for the line corrections (a working AG1980 still works a lot better than VHS decode), there are improvements to outputting s-vid over composite, and like others have said just better built more rugged tape components (when it comes to JVC at least).

When it comes to servicing, an SVHS deck is no more costly to refurbish than a "regular" deck. All of these machines are getting up their in age, and the way I see it... I might as well put my time and efforts into an SVHS deck.

Second point. No software to my knowledge and even to this date, has replaced external frame TBC (please correct if wrong). No software can replace dropped frames.

The justification of using software TBC is that it is less costly. The major cost involved with TBC hunting is frame correction. Most I have seen fooling around with TBC software, are running a DV converter into their computer setup. I recommend many hobbyists to this forum, and the overwhelming majority baulk when they see the cost of obtaining a TBC setup. I even had someone say to me "the pros are intentionally holding newbies back by recommending expensive equipment."

If I'm archiving VHS I would rather be playing my tapes in an SVHS deck, not a cheapo deck running into software. I did reach into the piggy bank for a proper TBC for frame correction, because I wanted both proc controls and 4:2:2 color.

I don't knock software options and find it exciting there is still such an interest in the VHS world. I don't mean to sound behind the times or grumpy, however I do believe there are elements of the analog world that can never be replicated with software hacks or cheats. Please keep in mind that once the signal is converted to digital, any flaws are baked in and software can only compensate for so much.

I've invested in building a transfer house business, and I am not confident at this time to rely on the software that is out there. I much prefer having an external workflow and it was worth the cost.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakedown St.

I even had someone say to me "the pros are intentionally holding newbies back by recommending expensive equipment."

In years past, such a comment would have amused me.

But in more recent years, we seem to live in a "Q" society (referring to QAnon, aka incredibly crazy conspiracy). The video community is sadly no different. Some of the BS that I've read in the past 2-3 years is such a wild mess of misinformation that it literally contains zero good info. In the past year, I think a lot of the stupid stuff is actually coming from young TikTok generation, that barely knows the difference between a VCR and a toaster.

Most BS is due to being cheap. That's it. Everything should cost $1, apparently?

And when you're young, time isn't yet valuable. So why simply use a good tool for a task, when you can waste hours/days/weeks/months/years screwing around? (Business understand ROI, regardless of age.)

Far, far too many older hobbyists and pros have written me in private, essentially throwing up their hands at trying to refute the nonsense, wanting to quit various sites and other forums out of frustration. It was their "goodbye" of sorts, as we'd not see each other at that place anymore. I'd do my best to talk them out of it, and some did stay. Some just post less, and others did eventually leave. All were appreciative that I'm still out there trying to dole out reliable information, as they really did love their hobby or career, and hate to see the BS cesspool it has become (along with so many other areas of our society). I truly miss some of those folks, especially our chatroom days (late 90s, early 00s).

Quote:

I have been away recovering from surgery over the past month

I wish you speedy recovery, if not already there.

[latreche34]

A lot of those instant expert/google diploma folks don't have the good gear to compare it to, All what they have is a cheap VCR from the thrift store or the side curb and dongle they bought from Amazon for $5, They have no sense of how a proper capture would look like and they participate in threads by saying this is good enough for me, Well this is not about you, it's about the poster seeking recommendation.

In the following video segment I linked look at how stable the frame is when using proper equipment, line and frame TBC, proper capturing, In a blind test environment most people would think it's from LaserDisc. It is a S-VHS tape however but without the proper gear the graphics in that video would have never looked that stable, except for some tape dropouts.

[Shakedown St.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I truly miss some of those folks, especially our chatroom days (late 90s, early 00s).

I browsed these forums for many years before I made an account.

There are a lot of familiar faces I don't see anymore. Yes I know what you're talking about!

Thank you by the way. I'm already hooked on pain meds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

In the following video segment I linked look at how stable the frame is when using proper equipment, line and frame TBC, proper capturing, In a blind test environment most people would think it's from LaserDisc. It is a S-VHS tape however but without the proper gear the graphics in that video would have never looked that stable, except for some tape dropouts.

You see. This is how a proper setup can look! Why fix something that isn't broken??

[robmoss2k]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

In my opinion for this project to really have some fruits the team should think outside the box and start considering building their own RF preamp bypassing the VCR's own, as well as the motors servo control to completely have control over the signal, That way they don't have to worry about what model VCR is and what signal level of the RF is, Also having control of the capstan and head drum motors means with one VCR you can have more tape compatibility in terms of video standard (PAL, SECAM, NTSC), The recording speed (SP, LP, EP ..), shrunk or stretched tapes speed compensation, prediction and replacement of damaged control track sync pulses for better tracking...etc.

This sounds like a great idea. Is it feasible? I'd like to pay someone to build a proof of concept device for VHS and another for laserdisc. Do off the shelf components exist or are we looking at contracting a Chinese manufacturer to build something? Can we dig into the internals of line/frame/field TBCs, perhaps with input of a retired JVC or Panasonic engineer? What level of VC funding would we need to put something in front of the BBC to digitise the rest of their archive material at as close to perfect quality as possible with minimal training for those performing the task? I'm personally interested in some very poor-quality VHS tapes made for Bolton Wanderers season highlights in the 1980s and 90s, which I've managed with an S-VHS deck, a decent TBC and an ATI capture card, but the results are still quite bad. I've had success post-processing the videos with various software, but it's painful.

[latreche34]

We've discussed this before numerous times across several threads, While everything can be made, the problem is finding someone to risk a big chunk of money in case the project comes to a dead stop or completes but no buyers.
SingMai is making similar device using a barebone VCR mechanism bypassing most of its electronics, but it has been a while since they made the announcement and we haven't heard anything yet.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...re-alternative)

More about the project:
https://www.singmai.com/dvcp.htm

[robmoss2k]

Interesting - I'll reach out to him.