NTSC playback: NTSC 4.43 vs. PAL TV?

[SFtheGreat]

Greetings.

I ca't find any precise information on how NTSC playback differs in the following modes found in camcorders and VCRs:

• NTSC 4,43
• On PAL TV

Natice NTSC would obviously be 3,58, so is either of them PAL60? If so what's the differance between NTSC 4,43 and PAL60, I read the descriptions on wikipedia, but there's no explicit differentiation.

[hodgey]

NTSC 4.43 is the same as standard NTSC other than that the color at the frequency color is in PAL (i.e at ~4.43 Mhz instead of ~3.58 Mhz). I think it was supported by some professional monitors and some PAL VCRs can output in it, and a few PAL VCRs from Panasonic had the ability to dub tapes over it.

NTSC on PAL TV is PAL60, and in addition to the color at PAL frequency the color signal is changed a bit to be mostly like PAL. This is what one would use to view NTSC tapes from a PAL VCR on a PAL CRT TV.

For capturing, NTSC 4.43 is preferable to PAL60 if standard NTSC is not available since it modifies the signal less (e.g from a PAL VCR).

[latreche34]

Me too, I'm always confused between the two even when I figure it out I soon forget, I did some online digging and here is my findings:

PAL60 is 525 with PAL chroma in a PAL subcarrier 4.43MHz @ 60 fields a second
NTSC 4.43 is 525 with NTSC chroma in a PAL subcarrier 4.43MHz @ 59.94 fields a second

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

[SFtheGreat]

Thank you for the information.
So PAL 60 is exactly 60 and not 59,940?
That would explain the audio srift I had when I was digitizing tapes with NTSC VCR connected to HDV dec kin NTSC mode compared to playing on PAL VCR and capturing in PAL (only audio, as video was not processed that way).

Basically "On PAL TV" would convert the colour signal as close to native PAL as it can get, while NTSC 4,43 would only change the subcarrier while retaining all other NTSC characteristics?

What would be the main differance then between natice NTSC chroma from 4,43 and PAL chroma frmo PAL60?

[latreche34]

The difference is chroma coding, so a true PAL TV cannot display NTSC 4.43 in color but it can display PAL60 in color.

[SFtheGreat]

Thank you for the information.

I will check the technical differances then.

[hodgey]

This technical doc from Panasonic has some info on how PAL60 worked at the time:
https://elektrotanya.com/panasonic_n.../download.html

[SFtheGreat]

Thanks, I'll give it a read.
I have an F65HQ though, I'll check it's manual too.

The document has the NTSC 4,43 specified as 59,940 and 625 lines, so the native NTSC would be converted to 625 to fit full size of PAL TV, with the subcarrier of PAL colour, but would retain 59,940 frequency? How would 50Hz equipment compensate? Or is it not upscalled, as mentioned earlier " NTSC 4.43 is 525 with NTSC chroma in a PAL subcarrier 4.43MHz @ 59.94 fields a second"?

In the secton of "Artificial PAL", which is "NTSC Playback on PAL TV", it only mentiones employing alternation to burst and R-Y, by which it achieves the aforementioned "PAL chroma", correct?

[hodgey]

Yeah that doc is just technical overview, not a normal service manual, allthough it covers two specific VCRs much of the details are not specific to those. The F65 might share the same video IC though, I don't remember for sure.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFtheGreat

The document has the NTSC 4,43 specified as 59,940 and 625 lines, so the native NTSC would be converted to 625 to fit full size of PAL TV, with the subcarrier of PAL colour, but would retain 59,940 frequency? How would 50Hz equipment compensate? Or is it not upscalled, as mentioned earlier " NTSC 4.43 is 525 with NTSC chroma in a PAL subcarrier 4.43MHz @ 59.94 fields a second"

It has to, All PAL TV's have 625 native scanning, So 525 is converted to 625, Not sure though if that is done within the VCR or inside the TV, I guess that depends on what device has the capability of PAL60 the VCR or the TV, If both then whichever comes first or whichever has it enabled in the setting menu.

[SFtheGreat]

If the VCR can do it, then the signal would come already converted, I think.
The atached document mentions the possibility of black bars appearing, so the 525 lines would stay not upscalled and padding would be employed. There is a section about format converters, I will get to it soon.

[latreche34]

Slightly off-topic, Looking at that document now I understand the AM letter coding as being PAL/NTSC/NTSC4.43, JVC used it too in model HR-S7600AM which I have.

[SFtheGreat]

Interesting.
I have F65HQ, but the suffix probably has no meaning.
The other one I have is JVC HM-DR10000 and I can't find if it has any suffix, the rest VCRs are low shelf cheap/free finds.