Basic, easy Hi8 digitization?

[roberthartman]

I am looking to digitize a few dozen Hi8 tapes, resulting in "good enough" quality, using a process and device that is relatively straightforward and easy to use. These are family videos and I just want to preserve them for my kids. I've been poking around this forum and haven't found a methodology that jumps out as straightforward. I just need to get this done without having to put a ton of learning in. I can see spending $200 or less, but I care more about simplicity and ease of use than cost. That is, I don't mind spending a little more to make things easier.

I almost bought a ClearClick 2.0, but then I read negative stuff here about it. However I am still tempted to use this device - I just want to get the job done. Since I can get a gently used one for <$100, I've considered giving this a shot but concerns about tape degradation (see below) make me hesitate, since I suppose I should playback and rewind the tapes as little as possible.

General question: I assume S-Video + RCA audio is preferred over RCA video and audio, but correct me if I am wrong.

• I have a modern Mac and can also get my hands on a Windows 10 PC. I could probably figure out how to install Windows XP on the PC as dual boot or something but really do not want to. Using the PC would be fine, though my everyday machine is a Mac.
• I am mildly tech savvy but don't at all like spending my free time on tech stuff. My hope is that once things are setup, I can have one of my young adult kids do the conversion.
• I have a working Sony CCD-TRV68 NTSC camcorder, which is what the tapes were recorded with. According to lordsmurf this camera has "Hi8 mono with TBC and s-video".
• In terms of a ClearClick 2.0 alternative, I've also looked at "Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2" and ATI 600 TV Wonder. The latter seems to be harder to find and it's not clear exactly which ATI device is the recommended one.
• Some of the tapes may be degraded. I've sent the tapes in to Southtree and only a third of them were digitized, the rest being deemed to be of insufficient quality to be digitized, though I've had no trouble playing them back (at the least for the few that I attempted to playback. Note however that one tape did break when rewinding). So I'm somewhat concerned that I need to get this right the first time.
• I also have a ton of 8mm reels that I want to digitize, but I figure that is a completely separate topic. I'm just noting this in case knowing this helps in steering me in a particular direction. I am leaning toward sending these in to Southtree.

Please keep in mind that if the digitized video and audio quality is about as good as it is when playing back on the camera, I'll be happy, and that I don't want to have to learn a ton or have a lot of trial and error to get moving. Hopefully this thread will be helpful to others, and if I've duplicated a different thread, I apologize. Thanks, I really appreciate the help!

[latreche34]

Unfortunately there is no such straightforward methodology, The party that you've sent the tapes to proves it, If they had the right gear they would have converted all your tapes successfully, But since they have exactly what you've been looking for, a stand alone Chinese capture device that processes everything in one go, a cheap camcorder they couldn't get a stable video and I bet the ones they converted the video quality is horrible.

Capturing video is not a plug and play process, It has a learning curve and a lot of trial and error, from the tape itself all the way to the digital files that need work too, The only way of getting this the right way is to jump in the rabbit hole or have a reputable service do the work for you, and what I mean by reputable not Legacy Box or the website you linked, I mean a conversion service like the one in this forum or reach out to one of the members here who do this as hobby and they have the patience and gear to get it done.

If you wish to go the rabbit hole route, first thing you need is a PC with Windows 7 preferably, a legacy capture device, there is one or two that can even work on Win 10/11 but most don't, Try capturing without an external TBC and once you get to the problematic tapes an external frame TBC will be required, Some had success using some models of DVD recorders from Panasonic as passthrough to stabilize the video, But it is not the perfect way some tapes may still stubborn and won't play nice, send those out to a reputable service as I mentioned above because they have the right gear.

[lordsmurf]

The easier the method, the lower the quality. That ClearClick is an great example of a dummy-friendly item that barfs out compressed crap video.

Like anything else, be it fixing your car, or even mowing the lawn, converting video is a skill. You need proper tools, and you need to learn how to use them. That's really the extent of it, for most conversions of most home camcorder tapes. (There are many obstacles that exist, and that's where higher-level skill comes in. But assuming normal storage, normal conditions at time of shooting to now.)

"Proper tools" is where too many people get caught. They try to buy cheap Chinese garbage from Amazon/eBay, and it always fails.

But I used "mowing the lawn" on purpose. You can do that, right? Operating a lawnmower has rules, yes? Don't stick your hand under it while turned on, don't try to mow over rocks, etc. Video is somewhat the same. Rules to follow.

Same for the gear: A cheap push mower sucks, a riding mower for a small city lot of the wrong tool, etc.

That ClearClick isn't worth the MSRP, or $100, or even $10. It's Chinese junk made for suckers. The ingested video is (poorly) processed to hell and back, and the output is often a garbled mess. These are samples on this forum, and elsewhere.

Aside from the best capture cards, XP is not required. You can use Vista/7/8 most times, less options for 10/11. Win10 is just not a capture friendly OS, but there are paths, workarounds, most of the time (not all, not 100% of Win10 installs).

In almost all cases, almost, I truly hate "messing with" computers. Fixing, upgrade, building, etc. That surprises some people, but it should not. I want to use computers, not waste time on simply making them worse. Same for video gear.

Now, the general rule is that the more you skimp on budget, the more time you must invest. So save $100, spend more days or weeks. And at some point, the budget gets so low, that you'll never dig out of the techno pit of despair, where nothing will ever work.

My specialty is creating video workflows (setups) that are somewhat idiot-proof. Plug it all in, use it. most of your time is then spent on actual video work. Not much time is wasted on finding gear, testing gear, not knowing it it works properly (since somebody like you doesn't have a video background), etc. I give you a known known (gear that is verified working), save you from unknown unknowns (aka, you don't know what you don't know).

That Hi8 camera is probably fine. Some folks would insist you need to upgrade to a stereo deck, but I see no need here.

Most Hauppauge and ATI cards will not work with Win10.
Hauppauge has the added "fun" benefit of being a brand/manufacturer that recycles model numbers, hidden revisions, production changes. So whatever good or bad you read about the card often isn't accurate to that exact card in your hands. As you can guess, trying to buy these cards is a gamble, and somewhat of a PITA.

FYI, at the exact moment, I do have some capture cards in the marketplace.

Southtree is one of those infamous bottom-quality transfer services. As is the case with iMemories or LegacyBox, read the Indeed and Glassdoor reviews, from actual employees. The ineptitude and incompetence of management and ownership is shocking (no video experience! just a cash grab), where your videos on handled by interns and low-skilled minimum-wage non-video general employees, who are not given quality tools, and quality is not really a consideration. Read the reviews. Indeed and Glassdoor are actual internal reviews, not the fluffy BS you read on fake sites online.

Anyway, the point is this: whatever Southtree stated may be complete BS, ignore it.

You don't want to DIY film. Get it wetgate transferred. Don't let a a cheapskate service talk you out of wetgate (nor BS you with why wetgate is supposedly inferior), and run away if they don't even know what wetgate is!

You camera has line TBC, and the Hi8 tapes should look excellent on it. But the problem is what happens after the camera, as well as the gear required for proper transfer. As an example, Hi8 is a drop-happy format, mean it drops frames incredibly easy, forcing need for some sort of frame TBC. Not to be too vulgar here, but you cannot "raw dog" video (no frame TBC) and expect a good outcome.

Remember: quality gear holds value. Buy it, use it, resell it. Junk is your forever.

BTW, the yellow cable is composite.
Only the red/white stereo audio is RCA (Radio Corporation of America), an audio format developed in the 1930s!

[beachcomber]

You won't be disappointed if you follow lordsmurf's advice!

Quote:

I have a modern Mac and can also get my hands on a Windows 10 PC. I could probably figure out how to install Windows XP on the PC as dual boot or something but really do not want to. Using the PC would be fine, though my everyday machine is a Mac.

You say "modern Mac." Is it an Intel Mac or Apple Silicon? If it's an Intel Mac, Boot Camp is available to you. And Boot Camp actually makes installing Windows surprisingly easy. You could try installing Windows 7 and see how it goes.

If your Mac is Apple Silicon based, dual boot is not an option available to you and you'll need a different machine.

Windows XP is the best option for video transfer.
The next best option is Windows 7.

Avoid Windows 10 if possible, and definitely avoid Windows 11. The rule of thumb: the newer the Windows OS, the more problems you run into with capture device compatibility.

I use Windows XP for capture and the capture software works flawlessly.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

I am looking to digitize a few dozen Hi8 tapes, resulting in "good enough" quality, using a process and device that is relatively straightforward and easy to use.

"Good enough" means different things to different people. The standard for most people here is high, the advice leads to the best practicable capture, and unless you are already deeply involved with video tools and techniques they will involve a learning curve and investment (at least a temporary investment).

Questions to answer in your own mind - what is the standard of quality expected by the ultimate consumers of the digitized video? What distribution formats are acceptable?

Arguably the easiest way to capture to a digital format that can be shared is to play the camcorder directly into a DVD recorder. If the tapes are in decent shape you will get a result that is close to what you see playing directly into a TV set. Depending on the DVD recorder used you may see some color and brightness shifts (but then it is NTSC), and you can crash (cuts only) edit using the record pause button. Then any remaining problematic tapes can be farmed out to a competent service. This will not meet the standard of quality expected by most contributors here, and will not facilitate any color correction of restoration.

[roberthartman]

Thanks all for the excellent advice!

beachcomber, I have an Intel Mac. It's good to know BootCamp and Windows 7 and presumably XP are a possibility on it.

lordsmurf, while I am uncomfortable addressing humans whose names start with "lord" , I appreciate all the info, along with the clarification on RCA vs composite (yellow).

dpalomaki, a friend has a DVD burner but I hadn't really considered that as viable, thank you.

At this point I'm looking into purchasing one of lordsmurf's workflows or trying the DVD burner.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

The standard for most people here is high,

But this isn't true. I don't like reading this statement.

Now, we all know that most analog consumer recordings are expected to be somewhat crummy. Badly shot, mono sound, badly recorded, SLP/EP modes, etc.

But it doesn't mean I want to make those worse when transferring digital. That's all I want: to extract the quality that exists on the tape, and not make it worse due to bad/cheap VCRs or cameras, lack of proper tools for the task (ie, no TBCs), or bad/cheap capture cards.

I don't think this is a high ask.

I consider that a very basic ask. The "high" part comes in when I process the captures in Avisynth, which is completely optional. That's restoration, filtering, improving, to make quality better than what existed on this tape.

Quote:

and unless you are already deeply involved with video tools and techniques they will involve a learning curve and investment (at least a temporary investment).

Refer back to my lawnmower analogy. Some people try to use scissors, too cheap for their own good, and they risk their own sanity as a result.

Quote:

Arguably the easiest way to capture to a digital format that can be shared is to play the camcorder directly into a DVD recorder.

Not really. These devices were not made to convert videotapes, but to record antenna/cable TV. Attempting to use these for videotapes, without a TBC in between, will result in multiple issues. Dropped frames, loss of audio sync, severely degraded quality that is way worse than the tape, or outright refusal to capture. It can be mitigated, with models known for quality tape transfe (example: JVC DR-M10), with at least a weak "also has" TBC in front (DataVideo DVK). It's not ideal, but at least it can be made "less bad" by choosing proper brands/models, not random gear. I hate the advice advice of "any DVD recorder", as it's just outright false.

Quote:

If the tapes are in decent shape you will get a result that is close to what you see playing directly into a TV set.

Not from a DVD recorder.

Quote:

Then any remaining problematic tapes can be farmed out to a competent service.

This is good advice. But the problem here is that the lower-end attempt will result in a large stack to be outsourced. It's somewhat of a failed DIY.

Either way, you will pay for the transfers, or quit and NOT transfer them. When you DIY, you can buy it, use it, resell it. When you outsource, that money is gone. (Outsource is mostly about saving time, or not willing to learn/do yourself. No DIY, not even a partial DIY.)

Quote:

This will not meet the standard of quality expected by most contributors here, and will not facilitate any color correction of restoration.

I think people overestimate my "standard of quality". Yes, some here want to use histograms for every tape, set every value for every scene recorded. But that's not me. I advocate non-destructive extraction of the tape signal, which is what requires line TBC, frame TBC, quality capture cards. It's not some insane expectation, not a videophile.

I can do restoration, but it was generally for professional use (ie, when I worked for studios, what I sometimes do here), not for our family home recordings from camcorders. Those were what those were. I did a lot of restoration for rare cartoons, rare clips, but haven't had much time for this in years. As mentioned elsewhere, the work somewhat ruined my hobby desires. My idea of fun/hobby wasn't to sit staring at an Avisynth script, having just done it for many hours for work.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

a friend has a DVD burner

Give it a try. All it costs is a bit of time and a blank DVD or two. If that meets your needs, declare victory and move on to something more important to you. If you want better, then invest more time and energy and consider your next step. It is you decision. This site helps pave the way forwarded.

High is a relative term. Over the full spectrum of possible capture outcomes in which a more or less playable video file is produced IMO the standard here is high: e.g., no dropped frames, accurate rendering of the input signal color and brightness information, no or minimal losses, precise time base, etc. Many a Joe and Jane Six-pack are content with results that most of the regulars here would reject out of hand. That is not wrong or right, just a fact of life.

As with still film cameras, some folks were content with fixed focus point and shoot disposal film cameras, others wanted and spent the time and money for high end SLRs. Same with video cameras - one could spend thousands or a couple hundred.

The key to remember is that it is a flow, from shooting the original event to the final distribution to the consumers. Each step's outcome along the way is limited by the performance of the previous step. The quality of your capture may limit what you can do with it in the future. A 30 dB S/N or 0.5 mHz bandwidth original signal will never be any better. (Although you may be able to put some lipstick on the pig so it looks/sounds better.)

[beachcomber]

Quote:

These devices were not made to convert videotapes, but to record antenna/cable TV. Attempting to use these for videotapes, without a TBC in between, will result in multiple issues. Dropped frames, loss of audio sync, severely degraded quality that is way worse than the tape, or outright refusal to capture. It can be mitigated, with models known for quality tape transfer (example: JVC DR-M10), with at least a weak "also has" TBC in front (DataVideo DVK). It's not ideal, but at least it can be made "less bad" by choosing proper brands/models, not random gear. I hate the advice advice of "any DVD recorder", as it's just outright false.

I would add here that capturing to a computer makes the footage much easier to share with people and so is definitely worth it to do so.

That's the goal of a lot of capture projects, whether people say it in their posts or not. People don't just want to preserve what's on tapes, they want to make those tapes' contents accessible.

Suppose you have a family movie showing your father, grandmother, etc. in action. Capturing to a computer will let you do a lot of things with that tape. You can share it via the cloud, put it on ten USB sticks and mail it to family members, or... burn the movie to a disc.

(Presuming, of course, you have a working optical drive.)

Whereas if the footage is taken from VCR directly to disc, it has to be extracted from a DVD in order to be made usable.

And we all know, or should know, that data is at risk if it's not backed up. DVDs are not a great choice for archival. It's trading one problem for another, in a sense.

An external HDD backed up to Backblaze or a network attached storage system syncing with Amazon Glacier or an equivalent system is going to be a lot more resilient for family memories than DVDs for preserving captured VHS footage.

[Hushpower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Give it a try. All it costs is a bit of time and a blank DVD or two. If that meets your needs, declare victory and move on to something more important to you. If you want better, then invest more time and energy and consider your next step.

Agree. Everything in life is a cost-benefit analysis; it is not black and white. Nor is video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beachcomber

Whereas if the footage is taken from VCR directly to disc, it has to be extracted from a DVD in order to be made usable.

It is a simple procedure to rip a DVD to put your video on a "computer" in MPEG format with a program such as AVIDemux; much simpler than the "conventional" method of video capture. After that, you can do what you want with it.