09-29-2024, 10:44 AM
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Hello! I'm trying to capture interlaced video using VirtualDub 1.9.11, to which I can then apply some filters in Hybrid.
In Virtual Dub, if I set Video -> Compression to "(No recompression: YUY2)", then everything works fine... I can open the resulting video file, and I can deinterlace it with Hybrid (though Hybrid is having issues processing the audio, which I'll bring up in a separate post). But obviously capturing uncompressed video is not ideal...
If I set Video -> Compression to " Huffyuv v2.1.1 - Multi-Threading Patch v1.0," the result is of course a much smaller file size... but I can't open the resulting AVI file to view it. When I try to open it (using MPC-HC media player), I get the following error message:
Huffyuv compression - file open issue.JPG
After I close the Error message, MPC-HC proceeds to play the full audio from the capture, but not the video. I can still drop that Huffyuv-compressed AVI file into Hybrid and apply deinterlacing, and it turns out fine (aside from the aforementioned audio issue that I'll address seperately).
Any ideas? I hope it's not an MPC-HC issue, because I really like that media player and have been using it for 10+ years for all sorts of video and audio files without issue until today.
Could it be an issue with my settings in VirtualDub? I followed the terrific notes over at
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-settings.html if that means anything.
Could it be the version of the Huffyuv codec that I'm using?
Thanks so much in advance!
EDIT: Also, in case it's at all relevant to my issue... Hybrid doesn't recognize the AVI in either case as interlaced video. It detects it as progressive. But if I select "Overwrite input scan type to: top field first," I do get a nicely deinterlaced video. It just doesn't show me the difference between the two when I check the "Compare view" box and open the preview window... the "before" and "after" frames both look the same.
-- merged --
Another note: I mentioned an audio processing issue in Hybrid that I said I would address in a separate post, but perhaps it's related. So if it helps, here's that issue:
While using Hybrid, when I set audio processing to “passthrough all,” I get the following message when I click the button to process the file: “Error in audio job creation: format pcm is not allowed for mp4 output!”
I get this error whether I am processing the uncompressed YUY2 file, or a compressed Huffyuv file. BUT... for the YUY2 file, I can select “auto add (all),” and successfully keep all audio intact in the final deinterlaced MP4. This doesn't work with the Huffyuv file, however - in that case, none of the audio options work except “ignore,” which of course results in a deinterlaced video file that looks fine, but has no audio.
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10-01-2024, 06:03 AM
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Thanks for those suggestions, Gary34!
I removed the MT version of Huffyuv and installed the standard version (not sure how I installed the wrong one to begin with, oh well, just glad it's fixed now).
Regarding the PCM issue - I simply followed the instructions at https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...-settings.html, which suggested setting VirtualDub's Audio -> Compression to <No compression (PCM)>. So if that isn't the best choice after all, I'd like to change my Vdub audio capture settings to AAC (or whatever would be advised) so that the audio is formatted properly during captures, but I don't see an option to capture in AAC. Any suggestions?
Vdub - audio compression settings.JPG
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10-01-2024, 11:39 AM
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https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...e-analog-video
Capturing PCM is correct.
MP4 doesn’t support PCM. There are threads about that on Selur’s forum.
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10-01-2024, 11:35 PM
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PCM for capture is correct.
Aside, trivia:
I believe PCM is "supported" in MKV, but in actual usage is still not supported. PCM is decades old (1980s), and not suited for "modern" (2000s) compressions and codecs. When making H.264 or 265, you're looking at AAC, Vorbis, FLAC, MP3, AC3, etc. Even FLAC isn't too new, almost 25 years old now, with shoddy playback support. It's the 2020s, and we're still using 2000s containers/wrappers. Ain't broke, don't fix it?
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10-04-2024, 07:27 AM
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Thanks for the insight, gentlemen!
So it sounds like MKV would be the preferred format choice over MP4 when processing my video through Hybrid, since MKV will work with the PCM audio I captured in VirtualDub and MP4 will not. Is that correct?
But my initial assumption was that MP4 would be my ideal final video format, since it seems to be a bit more universally compatible. My uses for my VHS captures are primarily going to be for importing and editing into documentary-style films via video software like Hitfilm and DaVanci Resolve, neither of which accept MKV as far as I'm aware. I'll also be occasionally putting VHS captures (like some classic children's videocassettes for my kids, for example) on my private local streaming servers, which I understand tend to accept MP4 more readily than MKV.
So if MP4 were to be my end goal, should I choose a different audio compression setting in VirtualDub that will then be more compatible with converting my captured AVI to MP4 when filtering in Hybrid? Or should I convert to MKV (or just stick with AVI) during the initial Hybrid processing, and do a final file conversion to MP4 after I'm finished?
Or is there something that I'm entirely misunderstanding about all this?
Thanks, guys!
Last edited by CaseyStelken; 10-04-2024 at 08:21 AM.
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10-04-2024, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
PCM for capture is correct.
Aside, trivia:
I believe PCM is "supported" in MKV, but in actual usage is still not supported. PCM is decades old (1980s), and not suited for "modern" (2000s) compressions and codecs.
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The first digitally-recorded music album (Steve Marcus - "Something") was recorded in 1970 in Japan, using a PCM system developed by NHK in 1969. And it still sounds fantastic by today's standards.
But Linear PCM (LPCM) is preferred for use with video, rather than plain PCM, for some obscure technical reason that I tried looking up but couldn't find anything definitive about it.
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10-09-2024, 07:09 AM
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Thanks for that info, Gary. So to clarify (sorry if this sounds ignorant, but I really am doing my best to understand this!  ), is it not a good idea for me to have an end goal of having an MP4 file of my tape capture? Is it a bad idea for me to consider a different audio compression setting than PCM when capturing in VirtualDub so that my captured AVI video file will then be compatible with converting to MP4 when filtering in Hybrid? Or should I convert to MKV (or just stick with AVI) during the initial Hybrid processing, and then do a final file conversion to MP4 after I'm finished processing in Hybrid?
Or, again, is there some reason I should be avoiding the MP4 format? Though no one has stated that explicitly, I'm getting that impression.
It just seems like (though I know I can certainly be wrong) choosing an MP4-compatible audio compression selection (would it be that massive of a difference in quality? Honest question, because I don't know) when I'm capturing in VirtualDub will allow me to choose MP4 for my Hybrid output when deinterlacing. And then I'll be "done," and can use that MP4 for pretty much all my specific needs. If that's the case, is the main concern just the video quality from using MP4 over another format? Is MP4 noticeably lower in quality than MKV? Personally, I had kinda settled on MP4 over the years as what I considered my "preferred" video format, mostly for its versatility and size... and while I'm no expert, I'd consider myself fairly picky about video quality, but I've always been happy enough with what I see on MP4. So that's why I'm feeling compelled to use it. I'm just trying to make sure that it's the right choice for me before I get too far.
Hope this all makes sense. Sorry if any of it is incoherent or hard to follow - I've got a toddler and a newborn, so my only opportunity to work on this stuff is by getting up at 4am before the rest of the family, haha.
EDIT:
Maybe this is an easier way to put this - I've successfully captured an interlaced AVI video in VirtualDub that I then deinterlaced in Hybrid to produce an MKV file that I'm personally quite satisfied with. So if there isn't a major reason to avoid MP4 (I won't be too upset over a drop in video quality as long as it's fairly negligible), my next preferred step will be to convert this MKV to MP4 so that I'll have it available to use for pretty much all of my needs. So my real question, then, boils down to efficiency - if one of the audio compression settings in VirtualDub would allow me to select the MP4 output in Hybrid instead of MKV, it would save me a big step as I go through capturing all my videos. Is this all a bad idea on my end? If the Hybrid deinterlacing process is my final step, is there a reason I should still avoid converting to MP4 until after the Hybrid process instead of doing so during it?
Thanks again for your time - I really appreciate it. I hope this isn't all a confusing mess of a question, haha. I promise I'm trying my best to figure this all out without asking too many dumb little questions, but this has proven to be far more complex than I ever imagined when I started.
Last edited by CaseyStelken; 10-09-2024 at 07:32 AM.
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10-09-2024, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
my next preferred step will be to convert this MKV to MP4 so that I'll have it available to use for pretty much all of my needs.
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MP4 is highly compressed and it’s a lossy codec. It throws out things to compress to that small of a file. It’s great for sharing on the web and it compresses well it’s just not meant for editing. You wouldn’t want to compress to MP4 then bring that MP4 into an NLE like Davinci resolve even though MP4 is widely accepted. Avoiding multiple rounds of lossy compression is a good idea.
Quote:
if one of the audio compression settings in VirtualDub would allow me to select the MP4 output in Hybrid instead of MKV
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MKV and MP4 are containers for codecs and a codec determines how a file will be compressed. You want to edit before lossy compression to avoid artifacts. I would bring the WAV into audacity and reduce some of the noise before going into hybrid and compressing.
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10-09-2024, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34
MP4 is highly compressed and it’s a lossy codec. It throws out things to compress to that small of a file. It’s great for sharing on the web and it compresses well it’s just not meant for editing. You wouldn’t want to compress to MP4 then bring that MP4 into an NLE like Davinci resolve even though MP4 is widely accepted. Avoiding multiple rounds of lossy compression is a good idea.
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By "not meant for editing," do you mean it's not suited for applying a lot of special effects and enhancements and adjustments and such? Because perhaps I misspoke - when I talk about "editing" these files in a program like DaVinci, 99% of the time I don't mean that I'm really editing the videos themselves (as in enhancing or altering them) - I'm merely dropping them into a timeline... like in a documentary, for example. Often cutting them into clips and dropping those clips in at various times. Do I still want to avoid MP4 for such applications?
It's such a bummer that more video editing NLE programs don't accept the MKV format, because it seems that would essentially solve all my issues with this video capture process - I could capture to AVI, then deinterlace that file while converting it into an MKV and be done and get on with things, haha.
My goal with pretty much every VHS in my pile that I intend I capture is to deinterlace it so it displays well on a progressive monitor, and then either A) stream it on a mobile device or B) cut it up to insert it into other videos (again, documentary-style). If MP4 is still a poor choice of video container for those applications, then I guess I'll have to buy a bigger external HDD and stick with AVI? Unless I'm missing another option for my final captured & processed video file.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary34
I would bring the WAV into audacity and reduce some of the noise before going into hybrid and compressing.
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This reminds me - you mentioned working on the WAV file before, but I forgot to follow up... So are you saying I should extract the audio from my video clip, clean it up on its own, and then merge the audio and video back together... before doing my processing in Hybrid? I'm certainly not questioning your logic; it just seems like a lot of extra steps, and my hope is to develop a fairly efficient process for my needs. If there's one thing I've learned so far, it's that decent VHS capture can be extremely complicated, moreso than I ever anticipated - but I'm hoping to develop a process for my needs that's fairly efficient so that it doesn't take me months to get through my stack of tapes.
Thanks again, Gary! I hope your forehead isn't getting too red from having to smack it while reading my questions, haha.
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10-09-2024, 05:46 PM
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Not Gary here, but I'll put in my own words on what I personal think.
I believe Gary is meaning editing as in doing heavy editing work, restoration stuff. That sort of work which would best be done on a raw loseless source, not a compressed .mp4 copy.
Since all you want to do is plop the video in a timeline, probably also cutting them up into little clips, then I personally think keeping the needed footage as a high bitrate .mp4 is fine.
And as for audio, I do believe you're correct on his assumption, do any audio clean up in Audacity or whatever audio editing program you use, then take the edited .wav file and load it into Hybrid. You can easily replace the audio source of the video, I've done that a few times for some captures where I try and also clean up the audio myself. Most of the time I leave it untouched
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10-09-2024, 09:02 PM
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Ahhh... okay, I think a whole lot of things finally clicked in my brain just now.  If you don't mind, I'd like to clarify a few points to make sure I understand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aya_Rei
I believe Gary is meaning editing as in doing heavy editing work, restoration stuff. That sort of work which would best be done on a raw loseless source, not a compressed .mp4 copy.
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So while a lot of this in-depth video file format stuff (codecs, etc) is new to me, one thing I have a decent understanding of is image formats. So it sounds to me like this is concept is very similar to using the RAW format for photography vs JPEG format - they both look essentially the same initially, but the massive RAW files contain tons more "unseen" data that can be pulled from when adjusting light and dark levels and making other improvements... and then you convert to JPEG when you're all done in order to have a smaller file size.
So where 99% of what I'll be capturing (my Dino-Riders VHS tapes, for example) will be perfectly fine going straight from a VDub-captured AVI to an MP4 after deinterlacing in Hybrid (like taking basic, everyday snapshots in Jpeg format)... when I'm capturing some of my grandpa's 1990's camcorder films that were filmed in low light, I'll want to stick with something like AVI until I get a chance to really work them in a video editing program to restore them as much as possible, and then it'll be safe to convert to MP4 at the very end for standard viewing, streaming and sharing. Am I understanding that right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aya_Rei
And as for audio, I do believe you're correct on his assumption, do any audio clean up in Audacity or whatever audio editing program you use, then take the edited .wav file and load it into Hybrid. You can easily replace the audio source of the video, I've done that a few times for some captures where I try and also clean up the audio myself. Most of the time I leave it untouched
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So what I'm understanding here is that in any case where I feel the need to clean up audio, I can drag my initial Vdub-captured AVI with PCM audio track into my Wavepad audio editing program and apply whatever noise-reduction or other effects seem helpful, export it as a standalone audio file, and then drop that file into Hybrid to be paired back up with my initial AVI video file when I do my deinterlacing and any other processing, exporting it all as an MKV or MP4 or whatever. (I actually didn't realize this was a feature in Hybrid, but I see now there's an Audio tab where I can drag-n-drop an audio file to be muxed with my video file.) Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks a lot, guys! I feel like some of this stuff is really clicking. A few months ago I felt like I was this close to being able to start processing through my stack of tapes that need capturing. After all sorts of trial and error and learning since then, largely thanks to this forum, I now feel like I'm... well, still this close, but it feels a bit more real now, haha.
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10-09-2024, 11:20 PM
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Glad I could help. From my understanding it'd be best to keep the raw loseless avis for restoration work, and as a 'master file'. Just in case if you want to go back and tweak the restoration process, you can just go back to the avi file instead of needing to recapture the tape all over again.
When it comes to audio that sounds about right, though what I do is use Virtualdub to save the audio as a wav file and drag that into Audacity, as oppose to dragging in the avi file in order to speed up load times. I save my edited audio file as it's own wav file, and tell Hybrid to use that as the audio source instead of the audio from the avi file itself.
When it comes to the restoration side of things (as I say, the part 2 to video transfers), I pretty much do everything in Hybrid, so both restoration and encoding to mp4. Sometimes I do small restoration work in VirtualDub, which I then save as a separate avi that is still loseless and has the same colorspace.
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10-10-2024, 01:35 AM
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H.264 uses spatial and temporal compression algorithms. It groups your frames together into I P and B frames. I frames are compressed independently of other frames by creating 16 pixel by 16 pixel macroblocks then assigning an average chroma value to them instead of saving the chroma of each pixel. That’s spatial or intra frame compression. The 16 by 16 block can be split into 4 by 4 for motion estimation.
P frames or predictive frames use the previous I or P frame. It looks at the macroblocks then sees differences between the previous frame and the current frame and encodes part that is changing.
B frames uses enter frame compression of previous and future I and P frames to achieve high levels
of compression.
I frames are less compressed and require more bitrate, P frames require less bitrate, and B frames require the least bitrate but require the most processing power to decode.
H.264 is tougher for editing software to deal with because of the way the editing software is having to decode the GOP (group of pictures) which is all of the frames between I frames.
Huffy is easier to work with in editing because it doesn’t compress by grouping frames like that. Pro Res is also good for editing.
Quote:
when I'm capturing some of my grandpa's 1990's camcorder films that were filmed in low light, I'll want to stick with something like AVI until I get a chance to really work them in a video editing program to restore them as much as possible
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Hybrid is where you do the restoration. An NLE is only good for editing color in RGB. That goes into color spaces. You really can do everything in hybrid. If you want to take it into an NLE though use a good codec for it.
Another thing is you want to avoid noise before compression in video and audio. It messes with both of them. That’s part of why you get rid of audio noise before compressing to h.264 and AAC. You can prevent a lot of noise and other issues in hardware. There’s trade offs in software. Hybrid also does lossless H.264. It has quite a few different codecs to choose from.
Last edited by Gary34; 10-10-2024 at 01:56 AM.
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