JVC HR-S9800U recommended settings?

[billct97]

I read LS's comments in the recent post "Comparing JVC VCR settings? (TBC, picture mode, calibration)" but either my menus are slightly different or I'm confused. Before I start my first capture with my new improved setup (ATI 600 USB and TBC-3000) I'd like to be sure I have the settings correct.

Below are what everything is set to currently.

Video Calibration - OFF
Picture Control - NORM
Digital R3 - OFF
Video Stabilizer - OFF (use the Digital TBC/NR button instead)
S-VHS Mode - ON

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billct97

I read LS's comments in the recent post "Comparing JVC VCR settings? (TBC, picture mode, calibration)" but either my menus are slightly different or I'm confused. Before I start my first capture with my new improved setup (ATI 600 USB and TBC-3000) I'd like to be sure I have the settings correct.

Below are what everything is set to currently.

Video Calibration - OFF - OK

Picture Control - NORM This picture mode was designed for TV viewing, not for capture or dubbing, which is what the EDIT mode is for. NORM will soften your video, blur motion, and over filter noisy tape. But if you like it that way.....

Digital R3 - OFF - Try this on and off. It's a sharpener. Looks good sometimes, sometimes not. Do you know sharpening when you see it?

Video Stabilizer - OFF (use the Digital TBC/NR button instead) - OK

S-VHS Mode - ON -- Are you playing SVHS tape or recording to SVHS? If not, turn this off. Of course you know the difference between SVHS and S-video, right? SVHS is a tape format. S-video is a type of signal transmission that separates luma from chroma and is usually cleaner and sharper than composite wire. S-video has nothing to do with SVHS, VHS, VHS-C, Hi8, Digital8, DV, DVD, BluRay, or anything else.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billct97

Video Calibration - OFF
Picture Control - NORM
Digital R3 - OFF
Video Stabilizer - OFF (use the Digital TBC/NR button instead)

This is correct.

Quote:

S-VHS Mode - ON

This is for recording only.
- The S-VHS VCR will record VHS onto VHS tapes if off.
- If on, and ET enabled, it will record S-VHS to VHS tapes.

Not something any of us use anymore. The very last time I used S-VHS recording was election night '08, almost 10 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Picture Control - NORM This picture mode was designed for TV viewing, not for capture or dubbing, which is what the EDIT mode is for. NORM will soften your video, blur motion, and over filter noisy tape.

Nothing was designed for digital capture/dubbing. EDIT was specifically intended for using the JVC as an editing deck, to create new S-VHS/VHS tapes, and preferably with genlock TBC in the workflow. I think this is explained in the manual, or at least some of them. It created raw-ish copies of the footage, and the intention is to play those bakc with NORM. The intention was to always use NORM/AUTO when playing back anything, and that would include to a digital capture.

Blurring, softening, and other artifacts are very tape specific. Sometimes I see that as well, but it's a minority of the time. The effects of disabling NORM (using EDIT), thus disabling all the VCR filters (a main reason I bought JVC S-VHS VCRs), can be more harmful to image quality than any VCR NR artifact. For example, chroma errors are best resolved in hardware, and can be impossible to remove in software post-capture without creating artifacts of its own. VirtualDub's CCD is quite amazing, but there are consequences to detail (worse than the VCR's NR). And chroma errors are a major way that bitrate is wasted in delivery formats (MPEG, H.264), thus causing more digital artifacts. Sometimes video is about trade-offs, choosing the least-worst error.

I've never understood why NORM changed to AUTO, due to enabling/disabling of calibration. AUTO does not automatically pick a mode (sharp, soft, norm), and is always NORM. Calibration is an entirely separate function, and one that was hotly contested (in the 90s, early 00s) by video-savvy users because it rarely worked as advertised.

Quote:

Digital R3 - OFF - Try this on and off. It's a sharpener. Looks good sometimes, sometimes not. Do you know sharpening when you see it?

It never helps. It gives video what I call a "crunchy" quality. Almost DV-like (Lego-like even) in how it causes blocks to form in the image. Not macroblocks, but luma/chroma blocking. And given that R3 is sharpening algorithm, that makes sense, as that's how some 90s era image sharpeners worked. And this is 90s era tech.

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Video Stabilizer - OFF (use the Digital TBC/NR button instead) - OK

It has nothing to do with TBC/DNR. However, you can only pick one: either TBC or stabilizer. For some reason, the internals of the deck must choose. Only D-VHS decks allow both. (And while it sounds like a reason to get a D-VHS deck, don't bother. The transports are inferior, hating LP and SLP/EP even more than normal.)

Only the SR-VS30 seems to work well with calibration on. So when using that deck, try it. It may actually help. The transport in this model is superior, and that may have something to do with it.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This is correct.

Quote:

This is correct.

I guess we will continue to disagree in this area, and I'm the devil's advocate again. JVC playback tends to look rather artificially generated most of the time, but NORM gave me images where that processing looked overdone. Perhaps on a pristine retail tape things don't looked so overbaked, but on noisy home-made tape the picture starts turning to mush and fine textures disappear. This is why I had to stop using JVC's after all my retail tapes were transferred and only the miserably noisy home-mades remained. Eventually I got my best results (that is, a realistic image) only after I stopped using dnr-equipped players with primitive digital circuits and moved to those without all the special processing but which featured accuracy over wishful thinking -- which unfortunately meant that even my venerable AG-1980 fell out of use. of course I did have to do my own patient denoising after capture. But the overall results looked like videos rather than paintings.

You know, this kind of question is odd, really. What does the user think of the results with different settings? Can people see well enough these days that they can't discern when an image has defects or when it changes character with different settings? I can recall a time "back then" when even my half-blind godfather Uncle Johnny who took me to the movies could tell when the projectionist had the picture very slightly out of focus. Those were the days before autofocus projectors, and before digital video removed 45% of the original information that was on film. I'm beginning to think that we have a world of viewers who've been well trained to think of the visual experience as something that looks like "media", when in the past a movie was intended to appear as if you were looking out a clear window into the real world.

[billct97]

OK, then it's user preference!

Video Calibration - OFF
Picture Control - NORM or EDIT - user preference
Digital R3 - OFF
Video Stabilizer - OFF (use the Digital TBC/NR button instead)
S-VHS Mode - ON (only for S-VHS tapes)

Thanks for the advice. My test tape of old Star Trek episodes recorded off-air has already shown me that the Video Stabilizer, in this case, works better than the TBC-3000 for stabilizer some very jumpy video. Like others have said, every case can be unique. It's good to have lots of tools in the toolbox. This is going to be fun. I hope...

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

I guess we will continue to disagree in this area, and I'm the devil's advocate again.

Another thing to consider is that each of us is speaking in generalities, each with a bias in sources (though I arguably have wider breadth here to pull from, but no matter). It's not like we're having a discussion of evolution vs. creationism (one based on science, one based on "because I said so", respectively). We're having a purely scientific discussion here, with lots of empirical evidence to back up the debate. Not theories, not hypotheses, but verifiable facts with difference interpretations of findings.

There is also an element of subjectivity at play, hence said disagreement.

Quote:

JVC playback tends to look rather artificially generated most of the time, but NORM gave me images where that processing looked overdone. Perhaps on a pristine retail tape things don't looked so overbaked, but on noisy home-made tape the picture starts turning to mush and fine textures disappear.

JVC having soft playback is based on multiple aspects.

One is the head condition of the deck itself. When heads start to age, video goes soft. And you'll see it more when using filters.

Another is the tape quality, either due to the recording, or the tape properties. Retail vs. homemade doesn't matter. I specifically recall a "Junes Bugs" tape (Cartoon Network Bugs Bunny marathon from the 90s) that I had recorded. It was a Maxell Silver T160, and I generally disliked long-play tapes due to thinner materials. I had also used a different VCR than normal. That tape plays back in a JVC with really soft details, unlike the Panasonic AG1980. I don't fully understand why. What I do know is that's not normal. I took sample captures of this, but have misplaced them. I do know where the tape is, so I can redo it later.

Quote:

the miserably noisy home-mades remained.

Noise doesn't really affect this.

But you need to be really careful about confusing noise with detail. Panasonic is oversharp by default, and modern HDTVs have spoiled us. Sometimes it's easy to think VHS is "soft" when it's really not. I'm pretty sure you already know this, but even I have to give myself reality checks from time to time.

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You know, this kind of question is odd, really. What does the user think of the results with different settings?

I don't know about odd -- newbies don't know what to expect. They don't know what is normal. So we educated them. On this topic, we're giving a lot of seemingly conflicting info, but it's still educational info. Now that they're armed with this data, I do agree that their own eyes can guide them to what's best for their tapes.

Quote:

I'm beginning to think that we have a world of viewers who've been well trained to think of the visual experience as something that looks like "media", when in the past a movie was intended to appear as if you were looking out a clear window into the real world.

I agree with this.

Too many people think that video "looks like" this or that (almost always low quality). There are of course limits to formats, be it MPEG or VHS or even HD, but too many people are setting that so ungodly low. This is mostly to blame on early Real/ASF/WMV/QT/Divx formats, but it continued with Youtube and cell phones. The irony, the sad thing, or course, is that the modern Youtube/phone generation H.264 can be quality (unlike those early Real/etc formats).

As clear as possible, with the fewest artifacts possible, should be the goal.

You and I disagree on where the line between clarity and analog artifacts lie. We're having more nuanced upper echelon discussions here. Many newbies are still stuck in the lower depths of video, and they don't know what they don't know.

We may disagree, but it's still teaching.

[billct97]

I've been an audio guy most of my life although I worked in TV for a few years. With streaming, mp3, portable players, etc it's sad what today passes for quality audio. Convenient, sure. Quality, no. I'm sure this is exactly what you guys are debating here as well with video. That's why I appreciate all the opinions presented on this forum. With your opinions it helps me as I make decisions about what looks good before I commit to a method (or methods) and begin the conversion from VHS to digital.

[sanlyn]

I gave up on digital audio years ago. Still own and use analog gear, precision turntables, cartridge alignment tools, vinyl, tape, Dynaco amps, the whole late 60's works. A Telarc analog-mastered CD is as far as I'll go with digital, and it takes a $1000 or better player and external audio DAC to do it justice. When I saw the junkware BestBuy was selling for CD and DVD players, I knew it was permanently all over for video and sound. Digital audio is a travesty. mp3 and the rest of it just lowers the bar and makes it worse, as denuded and as ugly as the typical digital cinema demolition derby or YouTube.

End of rant. On with working with the pitiful resources that remain.